Discussion:
Appile loosing all sales and margins
(too old to reply)
7
2013-07-25 10:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------

Its all down - about 30 million phones and may be
some 10 million tablets and margins down some 20%.
Thats about 3 weeks of Google Android sales.

By the end of the year individual Chinese and other Far East
makers could be exceeding those sales numbers.

The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.

Infinitely superior to any appile offering.

Its a sign that all those suppliers, factories and techies that
failed MBAs in appil have sued through their mega patent
trolling operations have have ditched appile
and gone with Android on Linux as their preferred platform.

All appile products are reduced to second hand
products built with out of date technologies.

Now appile is reduced to selling religion to
their faithful. Oooo!

The faithfools make do with foggy video instead of
crisp OLED video of Samsung S2, S3 et phones that
are a lot quicker and longer lasting with batteries.

Blame appile's failed MBAs who did all the patent
trolling money can buy and failed to
spend time making products that people want.

A lesson for all companies that hire failed
MBAs that do the failed MBA thing at the top like pointing
and screaming, tax evasion, burning bridges
to factories and patent trolling, when
they should be getting down
on their hands and knees and do some work
like making product.
chrisv
2013-07-25 12:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
--
"yes, I definately do feel it is the OSS comunities fault." - Tom
Shillton
7
2013-07-25 15:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
I forgive you my son.

Expectations were cut to between 25 million to 45 million.
Since they sold 30 million, it has been sold as
exceeding expectations.

You have to be religious to know how to spin
lost sales into exceeding expectatious sales.

Face Cupertino and bow 100 times and lash thyself
20 lashes and all shall be forgiven for this transgression
or forever be exiled from your nearest appil store.
Soupe du Jour
2013-07-25 15:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them change
some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is large enough
for both Apple and MS to share in.

I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by any one
player. I want people to have real choices available to them. I want
devices to be inter-operable so people can move from one to another
without being locked in.

Maybe some day...
mach2
2013-07-25 15:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them change
some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is large enough
for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by any one
player. I want people to have real choices available to them. I want
devices to be inter-operable so people can move from one to another
without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
--
-mach2
7
2013-07-25 16:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them change
some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is large enough
for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by any one
player. I want people to have real choices available to them. I want
devices to be inter-operable so people can move from one to another
without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.

If you want truly interchangeable OS agnostic tablets
and phones, Linux has it nearly covered.

May be 1 more year before the market is cracked wide open.
mach2
2013-07-25 17:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them change
some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is large enough
for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by any one
player. I want people to have real choices available to them. I want
devices to be inter-operable so people can move from one to another
without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
If you want truly interchangeable OS agnostic tablets
and phones, Linux has it nearly covered.
May be 1 more year before the market is cracked wide open.
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more if
Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell evolved
faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there. But often the
software is pre 1.0 or lacking compared to the commercial stuff. Believe
me, I'm not happy paying Adobe $49 a month for life to use their
software. There are however lithographic services to use for large scale
print and teams of others to work with that require us all to use the
same software. And so there is the sense that the $49 per month is an
acceptable fee to pay in exchange for the tools used to drive your
profession.

I like the ideal of Linux. I'd like to see it grow as a desktop
standard. It's already running the stock exchange, the banks, the
internet and so on. As a back end it's already there. And in mind at
least, I think there is a generational consideration at work here. I
think that as the next generation of kids mature to adulthood they are
more likely to adopt Linux than either Windows or MacOSX.

Apple and Microsoft were simply the start and so perhaps we don't really
see the life cycle at work just yet. The whole concept of personal
computers is still at its infancy.

Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
--
-mach2
chrisv
2013-07-25 17:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more if
Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell evolved
faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there. But often the
software is pre 1.0 or lacking compared to the commercial stuff. Believe
me, I'm not happy paying Adobe $49 a month for life to use their
software. There are however lithographic services to use for large scale
print and teams of others to work with that require us all to use the
same software. And so there is the sense that the $49 per month is an
acceptable fee to pay in exchange for the tools used to drive your
profession.
I like the ideal of Linux. I'd like to see it grow as a desktop
standard. It's already running the stock exchange, the banks, the
internet and so on. As a back end it's already there. And in mind at
least, I think there is a generational consideration at work here. I
think that as the next generation of kids mature to adulthood they are
more likely to adopt Linux than either Windows or MacOSX.
Apple and Microsoft were simply the start and so perhaps we don't really
see the life cycle at work just yet. The whole concept of personal
computers is still at its infancy.
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
I nominate the above for post of the day. Post of the week, even.
--
"Until Linux has a REASON for people to dump Windows they won't" -
"True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
Cola Zealot
2013-07-25 20:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more
if Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell
evolved faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there. But
often the software is pre 1.0 or lacking compared to the commercial
stuff. Believe me, I'm not happy paying Adobe $49 a month for life
to use their software. There are however lithographic services to
use for large scale print and teams of others to work with that
require us all to use the same software. And so there is the sense
that the $49 per month is an acceptable fee to pay in exchange for
the tools used to drive your profession.
I like the ideal of Linux. I'd like to see it grow as a desktop
standard. It's already running the stock exchange, the banks, the
internet and so on. As a back end it's already there. And in mind at
least, I think there is a generational consideration at work here. I
think that as the next generation of kids mature to adulthood they
are more likely to adopt Linux than either Windows or MacOSX.
Apple and Microsoft were simply the start and so perhaps we don't
really see the life cycle at work just yet. The whole concept of
personal computers is still at its infancy.
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or
register or worry about how many times I have installed something, I
am reminded how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines
as I want. I can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The
OpenVPN is free. My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is
donation. The office suite is free / donation. The browsers are
open. We can see the source code. We can define the machine. It's
whatever we want it to be. Compiles on virtually anything from ARM
to RISC and runs on anything from a raspberry pie for $30 to a
mainframe or super computer valued in the multi-millions. It's
pretty awesome.
I nominate the above for post of the day. Post of the week, even.
Sure turd, still running Windows only I see?
<X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 ==> this version doesn't run in Wine>
Ezekiel
2013-07-25 17:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
Hee-hee. <giggle> "Oh Mr. President, you're such a genius."
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
--
'I've never actually seen *any* Apple product in the wild. Anywhere. And
that's from someone who traveled the globe.'

Homer - Aug 10 2011
Message-ID: <ij6ah8-***@sky.matrix>
Snit
2013-07-25 18:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
He says they can make it anything they want it to be.

So why hasn't anyone wanted it to be something that will compete well with
the competition?

Keep in mind, I have made very specific challenges to compare desktop Linux
with the competition. The herd runs. Period.
--
"It's legal. What more advocating need be done?"
- Brad Wiggins AKA cc AKA Bill Bateman
mach2
2013-07-25 19:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
He says they can make it anything they want it to be.
So why hasn't anyone wanted it to be something that will compete well with
the competition?
Keep in mind, I have made very specific challenges to compare desktop Linux
with the competition. The herd runs. Period.
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality. I also think that programmers need to
make money. Apple's iPad got popular so fast because it was an easy
extension from the iPhone to make additional money.

The iPhone made money kind of by accident it seems. I don't think even
Apple thought they'd see apps for $0.99. On the blackberry and every
other device mobile apps were typically $15 ~ $30. Sometimes much more.
And some crazy people thought they'd release really good looking apps
for $0.99 or free and the volume poured in hugely. Enough so that they
realized very early on that the volume and general acceptance of the
iPhone made it possible to earn money with high quality and low cost
software for the masses.

When I bought my first iPhone I must have bought 200 apps for it. So
cheap they are impulse buys. So cheap I didn't care if I ever used them
much. When I was a youngster I spent much more than that in an arcade
for the use of a game for a few minutes.

With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money. The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all. I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP. Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better. There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.

I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
--
-mach2
7
2013-07-25 20:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream.
The revenue stream is in the billions for those that know
how to work it.
e.g. Amazon cloud services, google search engine,
google's android platform, most gadget makers that
support the high street selling high value electronics
such as flat TVs, monitors, IP Webcams, DVD players,
DVD recorders, MP3, MP4, MP5 players, sat navs, set top boxes,
printers, to name but a few of the high value items
that sell daily contains Linux that is bringing revenue
to the companies that know how to make money with Linux.

They sit actively in forums to kernel development teams
contributing code and resources to make sure Linux
runs and/or caters for their gadgets.
Post by mach2
And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money.
All that is saying is that they don't how to make money with Linux.
Whatever products they make are not competitive enough for
the price they demand or a much needed alternative for the
open source products out there like GIMP and other tools.
Post by mach2
The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
No matter what I do, I don't seem to be able to over work GIMP.
It has so many features I don't use in every day.
And I never see other people use it either.
So there is some disconnect here.
All my documentation is done with gimp.
Typically 20 pages when I'm half busy - may be 40 pages per day
when I'm busy.
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP.
I just can't imagine what improvements are needed.
If you are like me and use it so much and know
how to work it, I just don't get it.
Post by mach2
Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
Perhaps you can write it out?
Then we can tell if its a specific demand with too many conditions
or if its something basic that is lacking that developers and
users have missed from making a request. I serious doubt its something
developers and users have overlooked.
Post by mach2
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better.
In what way? - its so hard to win in on line battles that I can't
imagine a harder game that taxes your agility, graphics card, and
internet connection at the same time.
May be you can list these things that could be better?
May be then we can see if its something developers and gamers
have missed or its some very specific thing that stands
a good chance of being ignored because its so disconnected.
Post by mach2
There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Who is this 'we'? I get my rewards with tons of online downloads
of my stuff and innundation with projects and requests.
What else could I possibly want?
mach2
2013-07-26 02:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream.
The revenue stream is in the billions for those that know
how to work it.
e.g. Amazon cloud services, google search engine,
google's android platform, most gadget makers that
support the high street selling high value electronics
such as flat TVs, monitors, IP Webcams, DVD players,
DVD recorders, MP3, MP4, MP5 players, sat navs, set top boxes,
printers, to name but a few of the high value items
that sell daily contains Linux that is bringing revenue
to the companies that know how to make money with Linux.
They sit actively in forums to kernel development teams
contributing code and resources to make sure Linux
runs and/or caters for their gadgets.
Yes of course. I mean smaller app developers. Google makes their money
by displaying ads. A pure app such a game needs to sell their games.
Adobe would want to sell their apps like Acrobat Professional, Adobe
Photoshop, etc. And they'd likely wish to add DRM, which brings us right
back to the reason why I want to ditch the Mac/PC world in the first
place. So what other system could be put in place to reward developers
to make those apps if not the outright sale of a license to obtain that
game? That's basically what I'm saying.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money.
All that is saying is that they don't how to make money with Linux.
Whatever products they make are not competitive enough for
the price they demand or a much needed alternative for the
open source products out there like GIMP and other tools.
Agreed, they don't know how to make money on Linux.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
No matter what I do, I don't seem to be able to over work GIMP.
It has so many features I don't use in every day.
And I never see other people use it either.
So there is some disconnect here.
All my documentation is done with gimp.
Typically 20 pages when I'm half busy - may be 40 pages per day
when I'm busy.
Agreed, I am not nearly as proficient with GIMP as I am with Adobe
Photoshop. I bought a book and I am watching lessons on Lynda.com. My
hope is to be proficient enough to decide if the features in GIMP can
allow me to get rid of my dependence on Photoshop. Even if that were
solved there is still InDesign and Illustrator which I don't see an
equal to. I see others apps that claim to be like InDesign, but they are
not nearly as evolved.

Also you have to take into account that much of the industry has
standardized on Adobe's suite. If you wish to work in that capacity
Adobe is must.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP.
I just can't imagine what improvements are needed.
If you are like me and use it so much and know
how to work it, I just don't get it.
I could certainly stand to learn more GIMP.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
Perhaps you can write it out?
Then we can tell if its a specific demand with too many conditions
or if its something basic that is lacking that developers and
users have missed from making a request. I serious doubt its something
developers and users have overlooked.
Post by mach2
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better.
In what way? - its so hard to win in on line battles that I can't
imagine a harder game that taxes your agility, graphics card, and
internet connection at the same time.
May be you can list these things that could be better?
May be then we can see if its something developers and gamers
have missed or its some very specific thing that stands
a good chance of being ignored because its so disconnected.
Nexuiz I think is beautiful in every way. I think Open Arena plays well,
but the graphics are not up to par with current technology. The shotgun
blast is lame. The users run around like stationary figures. It lacks a
certain quality. Otherwise the game play is excellent. It just needs an
upgrade in the beautification area.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Who is this 'we'? I get my rewards with tons of online downloads
of my stuff and innundation with projects and requests.
What else could I possibly want?
Well, look at iOS and Android. Both have roots in Open Source and both
have hundreds of thousands of apps in a short period of time. Both of
those platforms command massive development just for the end user. Not
talking about servers and services here. Just thinking in terms of the
general user. Both of those platforms excel for the user in a short time
frame. We could use some of that. And by we I mean every user of the
Linux desktop.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-26 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On 7/25/13 7:40 PM, in article
Post by mach2
And they'd likely wish to add DRM, which brings us right
back to the reason why I want to ditch the Mac/PC world in the first
place. So what other system could be put in place to reward developers
to make those apps if not the outright sale of a license to obtain that
game? That's basically what I'm saying.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money.
All that is saying is that they don't how to make money with Linux.
Whatever products they make are not competitive enough for
the price they demand or a much needed alternative for the
open source products out there like GIMP and other tools.
Agreed, they don't know how to make money on Linux.
To make money you need to be able to protect your property... which comes
back to some DRM system.
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
No matter what I do, I don't seem to be able to over work GIMP.
It has so many features I don't use in every day.
And I never see other people use it either.
So there is some disconnect here.
All my documentation is done with gimp.
Typically 20 pages when I'm half busy - may be 40 pages per day
when I'm busy.
Agreed, I am not nearly as proficient with GIMP as I am with Adobe
Photoshop. I bought a book and I am watching lessons on Lynda.com. My
hope is to be proficient enough to decide if the features in GIMP can
allow me to get rid of my dependence on Photoshop. Even if that were
solved there is still InDesign and Illustrator which I don't see an
equal to. I see others apps that claim to be like InDesign, but they are
not nearly as evolved.
Same is true of Photoshop. GIMP is just far, far behind. Does not mean,
though, that it is not powerful and might not work for you. It might. But
for me there are just too many things which GIMP is missing. Multiple levels
of layer sets, multiple types of masks and the ability to add multiple masks
to any given part of the image. Add to that Smart Layers / Objects...
adjustment layers... just all sorts of things which offer amazing
capabilities. It also has a much better sharpen tool, 3D tools, ability to
copy CSS styling information you have set in it (and other tools to allow it
to work with Dreamweaver and other web development tools), vector layer
features, and on and on and on.

It really is a powerhouse image editing program - there is nothing else like
it.
Post by mach2
Also you have to take into account that much of the industry has
standardized on Adobe's suite. If you wish to work in that capacity
Adobe is must.
Absolutely.
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP.
I just can't imagine what improvements are needed.
If you are like me and use it so much and know
how to work it, I just don't get it.
I could certainly stand to learn more GIMP.
Ditto here... and to be fair, GIMP has advantages over Photoshop, such as
working *much* better with favicons. Absurd Photoshop does not do that well
given how it is sold in a web development suite.

...
--
Personally, [Stallman's] "weirdness" does not bother me (as long as I
don't have to be near him) but his extremist positions do bother me.
-- Lusotec
7
2013-07-26 11:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream.
The revenue stream is in the billions for those that know
how to work it.
e.g. Amazon cloud services, google search engine,
google's android platform, most gadget makers that
support the high street selling high value electronics
such as flat TVs, monitors, IP Webcams, DVD players,
DVD recorders, MP3, MP4, MP5 players, sat navs, set top boxes,
printers, to name but a few of the high value items
that sell daily contains Linux that is bringing revenue
to the companies that know how to make money with Linux.
They sit actively in forums to kernel development teams
contributing code and resources to make sure Linux
runs and/or caters for their gadgets.
Yes of course. I mean smaller app developers. Google makes their money
by displaying ads. A pure app such a game needs to sell their games.
That is where life can get a bit risky if you don't know how
to work the software only business model.

If all your income is software sale only then you are doomed
as a company unless you got something that everyone wants and
will pay for it blindfolded.

So the usual tactical approach to pad out the irregular nature
of income is to do contract work and then supplement it
with product launches, and not put all eggs in one basket.
Your local schools to local government require a lot of
software development work to be undertaken and you should
bid for it, get some orders in and make sure that you
added a back bone to your business somehow before venturing
into product launch.
Post by mach2
Adobe would want to sell their apps like Acrobat Professional, Adobe
Photoshop, etc. And they'd likely wish to add DRM, which brings us right
back to the reason why I want to ditch the Mac/PC world in the first
place. So what other system could be put in place to reward developers
to make those apps if not the outright sale of a license to obtain that
game? That's basically what I'm saying.
So every 3rd word is Adobe now? Why?

What they need to do is go out of business first and then come back
with a spine that supported them.

Trying to milk open source with DRM is no more an answer than rounding
up all competitors, putting them in a field and nuking the bar stewards
from space.

You got failed MBAs in every business that don't know how to manage
or progress.

They need to persecute everybody they can find in order to succeed.

So how about they fail first, find their back bone and come
back with a sustainable business model?
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money.
No they don't. They can go out of business and others who know better
will take their place.

So every 3rd word is Adobe now? Why?
Post by mach2
Post by 7
All that is saying is that they don't how to make money with Linux.
Whatever products they make are not competitive enough for
the price they demand or a much needed alternative for the
open source products out there like GIMP and other tools.
Agreed, they don't know how to make money on Linux.
Nope.

They are probably being run by
failed MBAs who don't know how to make money with
open source and *with* Linux unlike other folk who do know.

There is a fine difference between saying on Linux and with Linux.
Its with Linux because Linux is yours to do as you wish.


Best practice says they should identify failed management
and failed practices and replace them with
known things that work. Google works, Amazon works, Samsung works,
the stock exhanges work. etc.
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
No matter what I do, I don't seem to be able to over work GIMP.
It has so many features I don't use in every day.
And I never see other people use it either.
So there is some disconnect here.
All my documentation is done with gimp.
Typically 20 pages when I'm half busy - may be 40 pages per day
when I'm busy.
Agreed, I am not nearly as proficient with GIMP as I am with Adobe
Photoshop.
Something is uraveling here.
So you are not qualified to say you want GIMP to be better.
Because you don't use it. And you don't know what you want
to list any issues that developers and average users might have missed.

The average person has no such issues if they chose
to use GIMP, like me, and will never look back because they
have everything they need in GIMP.
Post by mach2
I bought a book and I am watching lessons on Lynda.com. My
hope is to be proficient enough to decide if the features in GIMP can
allow me to get rid of my dependence on Photoshop. Even if that were
solved there is still InDesign and Illustrator which I don't see an
equal to. I see others apps that claim to be like InDesign, but they are
not nearly as evolved.
Also you have to take into account that much of the industry has
standardized on Adobe's suite. If you wish to work in that capacity
Adobe is must.
How is this possible? I send stuff everywhere and no one stops
me to ask. The company I work for sends stuff
to agencies and no one noticed. Is it possible you are exagerrating
the idea that industry has 'standardized'. Basically they haven't.
Because that is not the way of industry these days. All industries
are more flexible than ever before. They have to be to get orders.
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP.
I just can't imagine what improvements are needed.
If you are like me and use it so much and know
how to work it, I just don't get it.
I could certainly stand to learn more GIMP.
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
Perhaps you can write it out?
Then we can tell if its a specific demand with too many conditions
or if its something basic that is lacking that developers and
users have missed from making a request. I serious doubt its something
developers and users have overlooked.
Post by mach2
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better.
In what way? - its so hard to win in on line battles that I can't
imagine a harder game that taxes your agility, graphics card, and
internet connection at the same time.
May be you can list these things that could be better?
May be then we can see if its something developers and gamers
have missed or its some very specific thing that stands
a good chance of being ignored because its so disconnected.
Nexuiz I think is beautiful in every way. I think Open Arena plays well,
but the graphics are not up to par with current technology. The shotgun
blast is lame. The users run around like stationary figures. It lacks a
certain quality. Otherwise the game play is excellent. It just needs an
upgrade in the beautification area.
That is not something the developers have missed as all those features
are driven by animations.

To balance speed with action, you
would reduce the animation and effects. Effects in particular.
And there are dozens for nexuiz you can turn on and off depending
on hardware.

If you want more animated animations, then you can fork the engine
and put in as much as you want.

Xonotix derivative for example has crab walkers that you drive in.
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Who is this 'we'? I get my rewards with tons of online downloads
of my stuff and innundation with projects and requests.
What else could I possibly want?
Well, look at iOS and Android. Both have roots in Open Source and both
have hundreds of thousands of apps in a short period of time. Both of
those platforms command massive development just for the end user. Not
talking about servers and services here. Just thinking in terms of the
general user. Both of those platforms excel for the user in a short time
frame. We could use some of that. And by we I mean every user of the
Linux desktop.
So looking at competing OSen would give me nothing.
I am better off developing for open source and Linux.
I am also power user of Linux and it pays the wages.
Put me in a room to design 2D cad, PCB, electronic circuits,
gambas RAD GUI applications, GIMP, spreadsheets, wordprocessing,
diagramming, database problems, and you are probably asking
for a severe bruising. Use any competing
osen or software and you are still with low to zero chance.
Pretty soon its going to 3D printing as well, and
then it becomes limitless product development
with software, hardware and documentation flying off
Linux desktops, and absolutely nothing to compete with its
speed and productivity.

If I were to run a software company today, my highest priority
is to make sure the open source developers are fully
engaged with products they want.
The only money they would need to spend money on is hardware,
software support and contracts to extend features
for the bigger customers.
Everything else such as DRM is unrealism from failed MBAs
in modern business environment.
flatfish+++
2013-07-26 12:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Yes of course. I mean smaller app developers. Google makes their money
by displaying ads. A pure app such a game needs to sell their games.
Adobe would want to sell their apps like Acrobat Professional, Adobe
Photoshop, etc. And they'd likely wish to add DRM, which brings us right
back to the reason why I want to ditch the Mac/PC world in the first
place. So what other system could be put in place to reward developers
to make those apps if not the outright sale of a license to obtain that
game? That's basically what I'm saying.
I've been asking this question for years and I admit I don't have the
answer.
DRM, copy protection, whatever you want to call it is rampant in the
recording software world and from my own experiences in general, not
always, but in general, it doesn't work and it simply inconveniences
the honest user. And at best, with few exceptions, it gives the
developers a few months lead time before it's cracked. And that's as
good as it gets. Most of these programs are cracked within days of
their release.

I'm not sure what the solution is.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Soupe du Jour
2013-07-26 13:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Well, look at iOS and Android. Both have roots in Open Source and both
have hundreds of thousands of apps in a short period of time. Both of
those platforms command massive development just for the end user. Not
talking about servers and services here. Just thinking in terms of the
general user. Both of those platforms excel for the user in a short time
frame. We could use some of that. And by we I mean every user of the
Linux desktop.
Too many of the apps for IOS and Android are closed source. I don't want
them, no matter if there are a dozen or 500,000.
Snit
2013-07-25 20:18:07 UTC
Permalink
On 7/25/13 12:57 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
He says they can make it anything they want it to be.
So why hasn't anyone wanted it to be something that will compete well with
the competition?
Keep in mind, I have made very specific challenges to compare desktop Linux
with the competition. The herd runs. Period.
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality.
The cult-like herd mentality is what leads them to believe so many of the
same irrational things. I have listed a whole set of their beliefs - things
tied to Linux and open source and also things tied to those who they
disagree with. No backing from them... and they just ignore counter
evidence.
Post by mach2
I also think that programmers need to make money. Apple's iPad got popular so
fast because it was an easy extension from the iPhone to make additional
money.
Money is a great motivator. And not only does Apple make money from their
work, lots of other people do, too.
Post by mach2
The iPhone made money kind of by accident it seems. I don't think even
Apple thought they'd see apps for $0.99. On the blackberry and every
other device mobile apps were typically $15 ~ $30. Sometimes much more.
And some crazy people thought they'd release really good looking apps
for $0.99 or free and the volume poured in hugely. Enough so that they
realized very early on that the volume and general acceptance of the
iPhone made it possible to earn money with high quality and low cost
software for the masses.
I agree the idea of the app store was not a part of the initial plan, or at
least not a huge focus. When Apple added that the usefulness exploded. And,
again, Apple and many others made lots of money. And customers got lots of
great apps at low prices. Win-win for everyone.
Post by mach2
When I bought my first iPhone I must have bought 200 apps for it. So
cheap they are impulse buys. So cheap I didn't care if I ever used them
much. When I was a youngster I spent much more than that in an arcade
for the use of a game for a few minutes.
I rarely buy apps... and did not waste much money in arcades. Some, in both
cases. But I do have an iPod Touch and a number of free apps and even a few
paid for apps.
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money. The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
GIMP is *far* behind... and largely just is copying Photoshop. Then again,
with the Creative Cloud subscription model Adobe is shooting itself in the
foot so this gives GIMP and others a big opening.
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP. Perhaps the problem is
software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't do what they want as
road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really don't know, I'm just
thinking out loud here.
They could do a lot without stepping on patents I am guessing. Here are just
some of the tools GIMP lacks... but I do not think they are protected (I
have seen many of them in other tools): layer sets (more than one level deep
- GIMP has added that *finally*), adjustment layers, smart objects / layers,
3D tools, quick select, better CMYK support, multiple mask types, multiple
masks on an image, etc.

The only ones which I personally do not use on a fairly regular basis are
CMYK support (which I have needed only a couple of times) and 3D tools,
which I have used a bit more but certainly not often.
Post by mach2
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better. There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I agree... though it is funny listening to 7 talk about it being such a
great innovation for Linux... with Linux getting it after Windows and OS X.
They are the late ones to the party. Does not mean it is not good, but it is
not a place where Linux is ahead.
Post by mach2
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again.
And on OS X the Adobe Suite spews files all over the place as if it were
Windows. Arg. And sometimes I have to re-activate for no good reason. Yeah,
Adobe has many weaknesses - even if overall their tools are great.
Post by mach2
I like the open model best.
I am a supporter of choice. I think the open model is a great one and I
certainly like getting stuff for free. But I also balance that with the
value to me.
Post by mach2
Maybe the community could collect donations and offer cash prizes for those
that make some significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like
we need some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on
the wall.
Makes sense. Would be good to see increased improvement. Also needs to be
coordination between app developers and DE developers so systems can work
well as systems (not that this has not already happened to some extent, but
would be excellent to see more of it.)
--
Bilk is a self-described psychopath who has claimed others control his
actions and that he was hated by his parents, many of his teachers, his
school principal, and the staff at his summer camp.

Bilk should seek professional help for his issues.
mach2
2013-07-26 02:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/25/13 12:57 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
He says they can make it anything they want it to be.
So why hasn't anyone wanted it to be something that will compete well with
the competition?
Keep in mind, I have made very specific challenges to compare desktop Linux
with the competition. The herd runs. Period.
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality.
The cult-like herd mentality is what leads them to believe so many of the
same irrational things. I have listed a whole set of their beliefs - things
tied to Linux and open source and also things tied to those who they
disagree with. No backing from them... and they just ignore counter
evidence.
Post by mach2
I also think that programmers need to make money. Apple's iPad got popular so
fast because it was an easy extension from the iPhone to make additional
money.
Money is a great motivator. And not only does Apple make money from their
work, lots of other people do, too.
Post by mach2
The iPhone made money kind of by accident it seems. I don't think even
Apple thought they'd see apps for $0.99. On the blackberry and every
other device mobile apps were typically $15 ~ $30. Sometimes much more.
And some crazy people thought they'd release really good looking apps
for $0.99 or free and the volume poured in hugely. Enough so that they
realized very early on that the volume and general acceptance of the
iPhone made it possible to earn money with high quality and low cost
software for the masses.
I agree the idea of the app store was not a part of the initial plan, or at
least not a huge focus. When Apple added that the usefulness exploded. And,
again, Apple and many others made lots of money. And customers got lots of
great apps at low prices. Win-win for everyone.
Post by mach2
When I bought my first iPhone I must have bought 200 apps for it. So
cheap they are impulse buys. So cheap I didn't care if I ever used them
much. When I was a youngster I spent much more than that in an arcade
for the use of a game for a few minutes.
I rarely buy apps... and did not waste much money in arcades. Some, in both
cases. But I do have an iPod Touch and a number of free apps and even a few
paid for apps.
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money. The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all.
GIMP is *far* behind... and largely just is copying Photoshop. Then again,
with the Creative Cloud subscription model Adobe is shooting itself in the
foot so this gives GIMP and others a big opening.
Post by mach2
I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP. Perhaps the problem is
software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't do what they want as
road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really don't know, I'm just
thinking out loud here.
They could do a lot without stepping on patents I am guessing. Here are just
some of the tools GIMP lacks... but I do not think they are protected (I
have seen many of them in other tools): layer sets (more than one level deep
- GIMP has added that *finally*), adjustment layers, smart objects / layers,
3D tools, quick select, better CMYK support, multiple mask types, multiple
masks on an image, etc.
The only ones which I personally do not use on a fairly regular basis are
CMYK support (which I have needed only a couple of times) and 3D tools,
which I have used a bit more but certainly not often.
Post by mach2
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better. There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I agree... though it is funny listening to 7 talk about it being such a
great innovation for Linux... with Linux getting it after Windows and OS X.
They are the late ones to the party. Does not mean it is not good, but it is
not a place where Linux is ahead.
Post by mach2
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again.
And on OS X the Adobe Suite spews files all over the place as if it were
Windows. Arg. And sometimes I have to re-activate for no good reason. Yeah,
Adobe has many weaknesses - even if overall their tools are great.
Post by mach2
I like the open model best.
I am a supporter of choice. I think the open model is a great one and I
certainly like getting stuff for free. But I also balance that with the
value to me.
Post by mach2
Maybe the community could collect donations and offer cash prizes for those
that make some significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like
we need some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on
the wall.
Makes sense. Would be good to see increased improvement. Also needs to be
coordination between app developers and DE developers so systems can work
well as systems (not that this has not already happened to some extent, but
would be excellent to see more of it.)
Thank you. Enjoyed your post!!
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-26 03:45:01 UTC
Permalink
On 7/25/13 7:51 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by mach2
Maybe the community could collect donations and offer cash prizes for those
that make some significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like
we need some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on
the wall.
Makes sense. Would be good to see increased improvement. Also needs to be
coordination between app developers and DE developers so systems can work
well as systems (not that this has not already happened to some extent, but
would be excellent to see more of it.)
Thank you. Enjoyed your post!!
While you and I might not agree on everything (how boring would it be if we
did) I appreciate you seem to have a balanced view of open source and other
computer areas. Open source is great - and has changed the world (and will
continue to). But it is not the best solution for everything.
--
"In fact, the main goal of Linux might be called usability... the most
important thing is that it works well and people ... want to use it."
-- Linus Torvalds
mach2
2013-07-26 05:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/25/13 7:51 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by mach2
Maybe the community could collect donations and offer cash prizes for those
that make some significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like
we need some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on
the wall.
Makes sense. Would be good to see increased improvement. Also needs to be
coordination between app developers and DE developers so systems can work
well as systems (not that this has not already happened to some extent, but
would be excellent to see more of it.)
Thank you. Enjoyed your post!!
While you and I might not agree on everything (how boring would it be if we
did) I appreciate you seem to have a balanced view of open source and other
computer areas. Open source is great - and has changed the world (and will
continue to). But it is not the best solution for everything.
:-) Thank you.
--
-mach2
chrisv
2013-07-26 12:07:10 UTC
Permalink
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
flatfish+++
2013-07-26 12:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
Yet you can't stop talking about him. Or other so called "trolls".
Don't you realize that you Linux loons are self defeating?
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Snit
2013-07-26 15:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by chrisv
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
Yet you can't stop talking about him. Or other so called "trolls".
Don't you realize that you Linux loons are self defeating?
They live in complete fear they might actually be exposed to ideas from
sources other than their own herd.

Open source is wonderful. It has changed the world. But too many of the
people in the open source community sabotage it with their close minded view
of the world.
--
For Bilk: educating people about Stallman:
<http://bit.ly/10vrChy>
GreyCloud
2013-07-26 22:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
Snit
2013-07-26 22:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
The level of fear chrisv goes through his life with is sad.
--
"The UI is developed by experts, except it is shitty, but improvements are
bringing in more and more users, except that Linux is at 1% as usual."
- Brad Wiggins AKA cc AKA Bill Bateman
GreyCloud
2013-07-27 00:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
(All such "Snit" feedings will be deleted, unread)
The level of fear chrisv goes through his life with is sad.
He's definitely a sad sack.
flatfish+++
2013-07-25 23:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
He says they can make it anything they want it to be.
So why hasn't anyone wanted it to be something that will compete well with
the competition?
Keep in mind, I have made very specific challenges to compare desktop Linux
with the competition. The herd runs. Period.
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality. I also think that programmers need to
make money. Apple's iPad got popular so fast because it was an easy
extension from the iPhone to make additional money.
The iPhone made money kind of by accident it seems. I don't think even
Apple thought they'd see apps for $0.99. On the blackberry and every
other device mobile apps were typically $15 ~ $30. Sometimes much more.
And some crazy people thought they'd release really good looking apps
for $0.99 or free and the volume poured in hugely. Enough so that they
realized very early on that the volume and general acceptance of the
iPhone made it possible to earn money with high quality and low cost
software for the masses.
When I bought my first iPhone I must have bought 200 apps for it. So
cheap they are impulse buys. So cheap I didn't care if I ever used them
much. When I was a youngster I spent much more than that in an arcade
for the use of a game for a few minutes.
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money. The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all. I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP. Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better. There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Substitute Nuendo, Protools, Samplitude for Adobe and I pretty much
feel the same way. I'm not sure it's due to patents as much as sheer
money, ie talent needed to develop world class applications of that
caliber.

I hold no allegiance to any platform and in fact when Vista was
tanking I said many times if Microsoft doesn't fix it I'm going to a
Mac and OSX.
And I still feel that way.
If Microsoft can't provide what I need to run my programs, DAW
mostly, I'm going to whatever platform can.
Currently that is OSX.


--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Snit
2013-07-26 02:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by mach2
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality. I also think that programmers need to
make money. Apple's iPad got popular so fast because it was an easy
extension from the iPhone to make additional money.
The iPhone made money kind of by accident it seems. I don't think even
Apple thought they'd see apps for $0.99. On the blackberry and every
other device mobile apps were typically $15 ~ $30. Sometimes much more.
And some crazy people thought they'd release really good looking apps
for $0.99 or free and the volume poured in hugely. Enough so that they
realized very early on that the volume and general acceptance of the
iPhone made it possible to earn money with high quality and low cost
software for the masses.
When I bought my first iPhone I must have bought 200 apps for it. So
cheap they are impulse buys. So cheap I didn't care if I ever used them
much. When I was a youngster I spent much more than that in an arcade
for the use of a game for a few minutes.
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
need to make money. The think is I ultimately don't think I want Adobe
in this. What I really want is GIMP to better so that I don't crave
Adobe at all. I'd like to see the users of GIMP improve GIMP. Perhaps
the problem is software patents in the first place. Perhaps Gimp can't
do what they want as road blocks are put in the way by patents. I really
don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
Nexuiz the game looks great to me. I love it and it's open. Open Arena
is okay, but could be better. There is some platform frog game I found
that I like. Steam is now out of Linux and that's a step forward I think.
I know I don't want Adobe if that means I have to worry about activation
all over again. I like the open model best. Maybe the community could
collect donations and offer cash prizes for those that make some
significant application achievement. Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Substitute Nuendo, Protools, Samplitude for Adobe and I pretty much
feel the same way. I'm not sure it's due to patents as much as sheer
money, ie talent needed to develop world class applications of that
caliber.
I hold no allegiance to any platform and in fact when Vista was
tanking I said many times if Microsoft doesn't fix it I'm going to a
Mac and OSX.
And I still feel that way.
If Microsoft can't provide what I need to run my programs, DAW
mostly, I'm going to whatever platform can.
Currently that is OSX.
Ditto here. If something can serve me better than my current setup I would
move. Now I do have an investment in software and the like so it would need
to cross a threshold of being not just as good but significantly better....
but if I could run both at the same time that threshold becomes smaller.
--
"It is absurd to punish anyone for having sex with someone of age 15 ‹ it is
normal for Americans of age 15 to have sex." -- Richard Stallman
Soupe du Jour
2013-07-26 13:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
I have asked that same question many times. I accept your explanation
that there is a heard mentality. I also think that programmers need to
make money.
I suggest you read some of Eric Raymond's essays. There are other
motivations for programmers than money.

http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.

As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services. Look at RedHat.
You can get CentOS for free, which is the same product as RHEL. You can
even take the source code for RHEL and compile it yourself. However, if
you want support, you pay RH for that service.
Post by mach2
Somehow I just feel like we need
some kind of a reward involved. Even if it is a plaque that hangs on the
wall.
Read ESR's essays.

You might also want to look at what the FSF has to say as well.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html


This one is also worth reading:

http://perens.com/works/articles/Economic.html
chrisv
2013-07-26 14:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
closed-source, sell-the-software model. It's perfectly understandable
that they choose not to support a platform with a very small market
share. Anyone who wants to use their tools already has a couple of
popular options.

There's nothing wrong with that.

The only thing I have a problem with is when a company is able to gain
sufficient power in the market where their proprietary file formats
become "the standard" that all must conform-to. This prevents fair
competition and consumer choice.
--
'Which "open standard" formats would these be? The ones that are still
non standard or the MS Office ones which are used in 95% or more of
businesses?' - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
Soupe du Jour
2013-07-26 14:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
The only thing I have a problem with is when a company is able to gain
sufficient power in the market where their proprietary file formats
become "the standard" that all must conform-to. This prevents fair
competition and consumer choice.
I thought this was Adobe's whole business model?
Ezekiel
2013-07-26 15:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
The only thing I have a problem with is when a company is able to gain
sufficient power in the market where their proprietary file formats
become "the standard" that all must conform-to. This prevents fair
competition and consumer choice.
I thought this was Adobe's whole business model?
Unfortunately for you, it's probably exactly what you thought.
--
"Apple products seem mostly for product placement in movies and television
shows..."

July 20, 2013
The Nobody nym - too stupid to realize that Apple has 42% of the smartphone
market in the US.
mach2
2013-07-26 15:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
closed-source, sell-the-software model. It's perfectly understandable
that they choose not to support a platform with a very small market
share. Anyone who wants to use their tools already has a couple of
popular options.
There's nothing wrong with that.
The only thing I have a problem with is when a company is able to gain
sufficient power in the market where their proprietary file formats
become "the standard" that all must conform-to. This prevents fair
competition and consumer choice.
Exactly.

This is why I mention the potential for some kind of a reward. Or maybe
funding not unlike Kickstarter. Put together a pool of donations for a
foundation, which then hires and manages a team of developers to make a
commercial quality app that is open. Once the app is made using the
donated funds the community would benefit for the source code and open
opportunity to further develop it.

I like Adobe's apps but I don't want their model on Linux. I like the
open model where we can go to the repository and freely download and
install the apps we like.

I think that both Mozilla and the Libre Office foundations mostly work
this way. Donations are collected, or in Mozilla's case they are
sponsored and those funds are utilized to further develop the app.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-26 16:10:09 UTC
Permalink
On 7/26/13 8:09 AM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by chrisv
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
closed-source, sell-the-software model. It's perfectly understandable
that they choose not to support a platform with a very small market
share. Anyone who wants to use their tools already has a couple of
popular options.
There's nothing wrong with that.
The only thing I have a problem with is when a company is able to gain
sufficient power in the market where their proprietary file formats
become "the standard" that all must conform-to. This prevents fair
competition and consumer choice.
Exactly.
This is why I mention the potential for some kind of a reward. Or maybe
funding not unlike Kickstarter. Put together a pool of donations for a
foundation, which then hires and manages a team of developers to make a
commercial quality app that is open. Once the app is made using the
donated funds the community would benefit for the source code and open
opportunity to further develop it.
I like Adobe's apps but I don't want their model on Linux. I like the
open model where we can go to the repository and freely download and
install the apps we like.
I think that both Mozilla and the Libre Office foundations mostly work
this way. Donations are collected, or in Mozilla's case they are
sponsored and those funds are utilized to further develop the app.
Keep in mind that right now corporations are putting a lot into open source
projects. Apple puts a lot into CUPS and WebKit, Google puts a lot into
Blink (which is a fork of WebKit, itself a fork of KHTML), etc. It is not as
though there are not rewards out there.

Still, for much of open source software there is little money in it. Who is
backing GIMP? More than that, who is helping to make sure that there is
coordination between projects? Who is offering any funding or other
incentives to make sure that distros can act well as systems and not just as
a conglomeration of loosely related software with little consistency?
--
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer was perhaps the most Conscious TV show
ever broadcast." -- Mark Bilk

And, no, he was not trying to be silly.
Ezekiel
2013-07-26 16:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/26/13 8:09 AM, in article
Still, for much of open source software there is little money in it.
Let's have a show of hands of who here works for an open-source company
where the company's product is freely available. And who works for a company
that provides closed-source proprietary solutions.
Post by Snit
Who is backing GIMP?
Open source works well when there's an incentive for corporate sponsorship.
In those cases there's one or more companies that sponsor a project because
it's in their best interest to do so. Google basically pays the bills at
Mozilla because of the advertising. The Linux kernel is primarily funded by
companies like IBM, Intel, HP, etc who all get something in return out of
it.

Using your example of GIMP - other than donations who's going to fund it?
Are GIMP employees going to make their living with "consulting services" the
way Redhat does? Are there that many people out there willing to pay for a
GIMP consultant?

Most open source projects are volunteer efforts. Volunteering is nice but
some source of steady income is needed to pay the bills.
--
"Really I benefited a minimum $100,000+ from Ubuntu."

The 7-tard "European Inventor of the Year" Liar.
Feb 15, 2013
Message-ID: <LusTs.218056$***@fx18.fr7>
Snit
2013-07-26 18:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Snit
On 7/26/13 8:09 AM, in article
Still, for much of open source software there is little money in it.
Let's have a show of hands of who here works for an open-source company
where the company's product is freely available. And who works for a company
that provides closed-source proprietary solutions.
Oh, no doubt, open source is in the minority here... though Apple is the
biggest tech company and *some* of what they do is open source. Even MS has
*some* open source code, though very little. Google has more... though still
most of their stuff is not.
Post by Ezekiel
Post by Snit
Who is backing GIMP?
Open source works well when there's an incentive for corporate sponsorship.
In those cases there's one or more companies that sponsor a project because
it's in their best interest to do so.
Right: open source works well when there are selfish reasons for people to
improve it. Torvalds talks about this.
Post by Ezekiel
Google basically pays the bills at Mozilla because of the advertising. The
Linux kernel is primarily funded by companies like IBM, Intel, HP, etc who all
get something in return out of it.
Using your example of GIMP - other than donations who's going to fund it?
Are GIMP employees going to make their living with "consulting services" the
way Redhat does? Are there that many people out there willing to pay for a
GIMP consultant?
So far: no. Not really.
Post by Ezekiel
Most open source projects are volunteer efforts. Volunteering is nice but
some source of steady income is needed to pay the bills.
Exactly.
--
"Linux desktop is why I got into Linux in the first place. I mean, I
have never, ever cared about really anything but the Linux desktop."
-- Linus Torvalds
JEDIDIAH
2013-07-26 17:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
Adobe doesn't need to change it's business model. Linux is just
another platform. They can just do what Oracle and Steam have done.

They don't have to give their stuff away by any means.

[deletia]
--
iTunes is not progressive. It's a throwback. |||
/ | \
mach2
2013-07-27 01:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by chrisv
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
Adobe doesn't need to change it's business model. Linux is just
another platform. They can just do what Oracle and Steam have done.
They don't have to give their stuff away by any means.
[deletia]
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-27 01:34:58 UTC
Permalink
On 7/26/13 6:06 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by chrisv
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
With Linux I think there needs to be a revenue stream. And I know the
community frowns on this. But if Adobe is to support this platform they
The community doesn't frown on people making money.
As for a revenue stream, it comes from providing services.
But that's not Adobe's business model. They use the old proprietary,
Adobe doesn't need to change it's business model. Linux is just
another platform. They can just do what Oracle and Steam have done.
They don't have to give their stuff away by any means.
[deletia]
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
As would I. Do you have specific things you would like to see improve with
it? I have given you some of my list.

I really have a lot more... for example, when using it on OS X why does it
not let me use the OS X color picker? For that matter, why does it not even
use the OS X save and open dialogs and printing is even worse: when I click
to print it opens a separate program in the background which I have to click
on (and, of course, it looks nothing like the standard OS X print dialog).

This means when I open and save documents I do not have access to the items
have placed on my sidebar. This means with color I do not have access to my
swatches from other programs nor to any of the default color selection
options I have in almost every other program not any of the add-ons I have
added to the color selector. This means I do not have access to my printer
defaults. Heck, for most of the hotkeys it uses the OS X standard of
Command+whatever but for printing it uses Control+P. When I select to "Hide"
it (which shows the correct hot key but it does not work), it often hides
and then pops back into view, though behind other programs (this is just
*wrong* and absurd... I have never seen any other program act so oddly on OS
X). I can go on and on - no system services... no access to the Media
Browser... on and on.

It really is quite a mess. Photoshop is not perfect - though Adobe has
worked hard over the last few versions to improve it. For example, some of
its traditional hot keys are the same as ones Apple uses (such as Command+H
to hide the program... also used for years by Photoshop to hide grids and
slices and the like). Well, people have been using it for years... what do
you do? The first time you hit Command+H the program asks which you want it
to do... and you can change it any time you want. Similarly, you can use the
Adobe color selectors *or* the Apple one... or the Adobe file selectors *or*
the Apple ones. Same idea on Windows. Neither Photoshop nor GIMP uses the
newish forms of file revisions that OS X added a few years ago - though
rumor has it they are working on it for the Creative Cloud suite. They have
added built in Spotlight features into the Mac version.

With GIMP: Even on Linux should it follow the KDE or Gnome standards?

Even if a program is great it needs to fit into the system it runs on to
really be top notch. The fact GIMP is so disrespectful of the OS X standards
pretty much kills its chance to be truly successful (on OS X, that is), even
if it were to improve in a lot of other ways.

This is a large problem on desktop Linux: there is no way to really respect
the DE... you either design for KDE *or* Gnome, in which case half your
users get left out, or you try to design for both, which makes development
harder, or you design for somewhere in the middle and it ends up being a bit
of a mess. This is why you end up with things like this:


I have a lot of respect for LibreOffice. It has really pushed things after
OpenOffice stagnated at v3 (which was a bit improvement in itself). But they
cannot even get basic terms like "Quit" and "Close" to be consistent... and
users do not generally pay attention to this. What is deemed "user error" is
often an error in the system - its inconsistencies cause people to not be
able to predict what will happen.
--
"On desktops, Linux has had a hard time cracking the 1 per cent mark,
although some of the web analytics companies now put it at around 1.5 per
cent." -- Linus Torvalds
Soupe du Jour
2013-07-29 14:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?

Buh-bye, wintroll.




mach2 in a.o.l.u:


"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.

The RT feels very fast in the Metro interface. It's not until you use it
for Office that it feels slow at all. And even then it's not all that bad.
I used it for a solid 3 months while waiting for the Pro model to release.

The Pro model is not at all over priced from my point of view. It is an
intel core i5 based tablet, weighing in at just 2 lbs with a 1080p
display, 10 point touch, digital pen and all the innards of a laptop. Find
me another i5 based laptop with a 128 GB SSD, 1080p display that weighs
just 1.99 lbs for $999. The closest is Apple's MacBook Air and the surface
is lighter, has a better display, a touch screen and a digital pen, which
makes drawing with Autodesk's Sketchbook Pro pretty much on par with using
a Cintiq, only lighter and cheaper by far.

I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
mach2
2013-07-29 15:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
The RT feels very fast in the Metro interface. It's not until you use it
for Office that it feels slow at all. And even then it's not all that bad.
I used it for a solid 3 months while waiting for the Pro model to release.
The Pro model is not at all over priced from my point of view. It is an
intel core i5 based tablet, weighing in at just 2 lbs with a 1080p
display, 10 point touch, digital pen and all the innards of a laptop. Find
me another i5 based laptop with a 128 GB SSD, 1080p display that weighs
just 1.99 lbs for $999. The closest is Apple's MacBook Air and the surface
is lighter, has a better display, a touch screen and a digital pen, which
makes drawing with Autodesk's Sketchbook Pro pretty much on par with using
a Cintiq, only lighter and cheaper by far.
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
platform and use them all. I use Windows 8, Fedora 18, Mint 15, Ubuntu
12.04, MacOSX 10.6, 10.7 and 10.8.

I currently own:

Asus Transformer Infinity (not in use but I still own it)
Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 (not in use but I still own it)
Amazon Kindle Fire HD 8.9 (use it every day)
Amazon Kindle Paper White
Apple iPad Mini 7.9 (use it sometimes)
Microsoft Surface RT 64 GB (use it sometimes)
Microsoft Surface Pro 128 GB (use it every day)
Google Nexus 4 (not in use but I still own it)
Apple iPhone 4 (not in use but I still own it)
Apple iPhone 4s (not in use but I still own it)
Nokia Lumia 920 (not in use but I still own it)
Nokia Lumia 928 Verizon
Dell XPS 13" Ultrabook (Running Mint 15, Use it every day)
Dell XPS 16" (Running Mint 15)
Asus n1201 NetBook (Running Mint 15 XFCE)
Apple Mac Mini (Running as a server)
Apple MacBook Air (not in use but I still own it)
Apple MacBook Pro 480 GB SSD / 16 GB RAM (Use it every day)
Apple Dual G5 2.0 GHz PPC (use it every day, Runs as PPC app I need)
Samsung Series 5 550 Chromebook Celeron 1.3 GHz with 3G (sometimes use)
Samsung Chromebox Celeron 1.9 GHz (sometimes use)
Home build Intel Server 6 TB / 32 GB RAM / Ubuntu 12.04 LTS Server (just
built it and installed it this weekend)

In your world, I guess you stick to one thing. I don't do that by a
country mile. I use everything. I like everything. I don't hate
anything. If you have a problem with that, go fuck yourself, harder.
--
-mach2
JEDIDIAH
2013-07-29 17:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?

[deletia]

Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
--
...of course if you are forced against your will to use Windows in |||
the day time your bound to have a lot to vent about in the evening. / | \
mach2
2013-07-29 18:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.

I made clear that I one of the qualities I find in Linux is the
repository where I can install most anything as often as I want and that
is a quality I want to see continue. You didn't read that part did you?
You read what a troll selected from a part of what I said, leaving out
the full context of my thoughts on the matter, then you feel justified
to attack me for it. Well fuck you shithead.

I want GIMP to be better because I want to see good competition out
there. Something I have also written. I don't like winners and losers.
I'd like a pretty level playing field to keep the industry in check. Too
hard for you asshole trolls to understand?

You don't appreciate my comment, hey don't read them. Don't comment on
them. Fact is you just want to troll cause you're lame ass fuck-tard
with no real life of your own.
--
-mach2
JEDIDIAH
2013-07-29 20:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
There's no good reason to fixate on Adobe on Windows or GIMP on Linux.

There's plenty of room for other alternatives.

[deletia]

If money is being left on the table or needs not being met then someone
else can come along and fill the gap. That's the free market.
--
...of course if you are forced against your will to use Windows in |||
the day time your bound to have a lot to vent about in the evening. / | \
flatfish+++
2013-07-29 22:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
There's no good reason to fixate on Adobe on Windows or GIMP on Linux.
There's plenty of room for other alternatives.
Yea....So what is the user to do for the next 10 years waiting for an
application with the complexity of Gimp or PhotoShop to be developed?

BTW Gimp runs on Windows as well.

It's mostly ignored BTW.

You're an idiot Jeb.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Hadron
2013-07-30 14:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
There's no good reason to fixate on Adobe on Windows or GIMP on Linux.
There's plenty of room for other alternatives.
[deletia]
If money is being left on the table or needs not being met then someone
else can come along and fill the gap. That's the free market.
You're a total idiot. It *IS* a free market. And people regularly
freely pick Adobe because its a professional product that suits their
needs, is supported, has a nice UI, has oodles of plugins etc. I use Gimp. Gimp
is good for 99% of what most people want AND its free as in free beer.

Do you have ANY idea how much work it takes to build such complex
programs?

Oh yes. You're the clueless dolt who thought two open source programmers
in a caravan could knock out Halo 2 in 2 weeks.

You really redefine "clueless moron".
--
A certain COLA "advocate" faking his user-agent in order to pretend to be a Linux
user: User-Agent: Outlook 5.5 (WinNT 5.0), User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0
(Linux), Message-ID: <wPGdnd3NnOM0ACfdRVn-***@comcast.com>
Snit
2013-07-29 21:12:32 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 11:51 AM, in article
...
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently.
Do you really? I use Photoshop and Dreamweaver a lot, Acrobat to make forms,
Flash from time to time (though I do not know it well), Bridge just to look
at (but I do not really use it), and not much else. I have looked at Edge
and it seems interesting... have opened up the others but never really used
Fireworks, InDesign, Muse, Premier, After Effects, Lightroom, and however
many other tools are in the suite. I should learn Illustrator... have
tinkered a bit but am grossly ignorant about it.
Post by mach2
I made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
Ditto here: though I do use it for working with favicons and just to tinker
and play. Why doesn't Adobe's web development suite have a decent favicon
maker? Makes no sense. That is one area where GIMP is far ahead.
Post by mach2
I made clear that I one of the qualities I find in Linux is the repository
where I can install most anything as often as I want and that is a quality I
want to see continue.
I have spoken about the value of this, too, and how even now it is ahead of
the competition. But I am deemed a Linux-hater because I see the benefits of
the competition as well and am not a purest (a cult-like member of their
herd).
Post by mach2
You didn't read that part did you? You read what a troll selected from a part
of what I said, leaving out the full context of my thoughts on the matter,
then you feel justified to attack me for it. Well fuck you shithead.
Welcome to COLA. You seem a reasonable and open minded person. The
"advocates" will hate you.
Post by mach2
I want GIMP to be better because I want to see good competition out there.
Something I have also written. I don't like winners and losers. I'd like a
pretty level playing field to keep the industry in check. Too hard for you
asshole trolls to understand?
It is. You are not pushing Linux / open source all the way so you must be
evil.
Post by mach2
You don't appreciate my comment, hey don't read them. Don't comment on them.
Fact is you just want to troll cause you're lame ass fuck-tard with no real
life of your own.
--
Mark Bilk demonstrating why he considers his own actions to be those of a
"psychopath": <http://bit.ly/13GAHFr>.

I sincerely hope he seeks professional help for his challenges.
flatfish+++
2013-07-29 22:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
I made clear that I one of the qualities I find in Linux is the
repository where I can install most anything as often as I want and that
is a quality I want to see continue. You didn't read that part did you?
You read what a troll selected from a part of what I said, leaving out
the full context of my thoughts on the matter, then you feel justified
to attack me for it. Well fuck you shithead.
I want GIMP to be better because I want to see good competition out
there. Something I have also written. I don't like winners and losers.
I'd like a pretty level playing field to keep the industry in check. Too
hard for you asshole trolls to understand?
You don't appreciate my comment, hey don't read them. Don't comment on
them. Fact is you just want to troll cause you're lame ass fuck-tard
with no real life of your own.
You have just seen a classic example of how the rabid, zealot Linux
community operates.

You are either 100 percent with them and their beliefs regarding
Linux and FOSS or you are the enemy and will be attacked.

Notice the use of the word "purist".
A cult term if ever there was one, lol !
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Snit
2013-07-29 22:22:28 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 3:04 PM, in article b6e72r0p5ahu$***@40tude.net,
"flatfish+++" <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

...
Post by flatfish+++
Post by mach2
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
I made clear that I one of the qualities I find in Linux is the
repository where I can install most anything as often as I want and that
is a quality I want to see continue. You didn't read that part did you?
You read what a troll selected from a part of what I said, leaving out
the full context of my thoughts on the matter, then you feel justified
to attack me for it. Well fuck you shithead.
I want GIMP to be better because I want to see good competition out
there. Something I have also written. I don't like winners and losers.
I'd like a pretty level playing field to keep the industry in check. Too
hard for you asshole trolls to understand?
You don't appreciate my comment, hey don't read them. Don't comment on
them. Fact is you just want to troll cause you're lame ass fuck-tard
with no real life of your own.
You have just seen a classic example of how the rabid, zealot Linux
community operates.
You are either 100 percent with them and their beliefs regarding
Linux and FOSS or you are the enemy and will be attacked.
Notice the use of the word "purist".
A cult term if ever there was one, lol !
If you are not a "purist" you are a heritic... or what most call a "troll"
and Bilk calls a "psychopath". That is generally what they mean by those
terms, even if they do not realize it themselves.
--
Post by flatfish+++
As for Stallman, he is a repulsive person by any standard of decency.
... standard of decency or hygiene.
-- Lusotec
mach2
2013-07-29 22:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by mach2
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
That's your interpretation of what I wrote. I never said I was a purist.
Show me where I said I was. If anything I said right off the bat that I
use everything. I made clear I use the whole Adobe suite currently. I
made clear that I could stand to learn GIMP better.
I made clear that I one of the qualities I find in Linux is the
repository where I can install most anything as often as I want and that
is a quality I want to see continue. You didn't read that part did you?
You read what a troll selected from a part of what I said, leaving out
the full context of my thoughts on the matter, then you feel justified
to attack me for it. Well fuck you shithead.
I want GIMP to be better because I want to see good competition out
there. Something I have also written. I don't like winners and losers.
I'd like a pretty level playing field to keep the industry in check. Too
hard for you asshole trolls to understand?
You don't appreciate my comment, hey don't read them. Don't comment on
them. Fact is you just want to troll cause you're lame ass fuck-tard
with no real life of your own.
You have just seen a classic example of how the rabid, zealot Linux
community operates.
You are either 100 percent with them and their beliefs regarding
Linux and FOSS or you are the enemy and will be attacked.
Notice the use of the word "purist".
A cult term if ever there was one, lol !
Thank you for the kind words of support.
--
-mach2
chrisv
2013-07-29 23:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.

I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
--
"In COLA they don't see the need for a help group like this because
they actually believe Linux is perfect. Really." - Hadron Quark,
lying shamelessly
flatfish+++
2013-07-29 23:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
Yawn.

It wasn't a misunderstanding at all.

Jeb pulled the Linux community elitist card and got called on it.

It's a fact that a person is either 100 percent with the Linux herd
or they are the enemy and will be attacked.

mach2 has a decent posting history and uses multiple operating
systems. Nothing wrong with that. I don't care what he or she uses.

You on the other hand chrisv spew your vulgar insults every day, from
work no doubt, using a Windows program under Windows. You spew about
how Linux is superior yet you have never been seen using Windows and
in fact brag about recycling Windows systems to your family and how
your family indeed does use Windows.

Sounds to me like you are the troll, chrisv.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Snit
2013-07-30 00:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
Yawn.
It wasn't a misunderstanding at all.
Jeb pulled the Linux community elitist card and got called on it.
It's a fact that a person is either 100 percent with the Linux herd
or they are the enemy and will be attacked.
mach2 has a decent posting history and uses multiple operating
systems. Nothing wrong with that. I don't care what he or she uses.
You on the other hand chrisv spew your vulgar insults every day, from
work no doubt, using a Windows program under Windows. You spew about
how Linux is superior yet you have never been seen using Windows and
in fact brag about recycling Windows systems to your family and how
your family indeed does use Windows.
Sounds to me like you are the troll, chrisv.
The herd is showing its true colors. They cannot help it.
--
"All of these acts [prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality,
possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia] should be
legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of
prejudice and narrowmindedness." -- Richard Stallman
Snit
2013-07-30 00:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.

It is what your herd does.
--
"It's legal. What more advocating need be done?"
- Brad Wiggins AKA cc AKA Bill Bateman
flatfish+++
2013-07-30 00:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.
It is what your herd does.
mach2 seems like a reasonable poster who uses multiple operating
systems.
He/She has a posting history outside COLA and seems honest and
sincere.

Nothing wrong with that.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Snit
2013-07-30 00:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.
It is what your herd does.
mach2 seems like a reasonable poster who uses multiple operating
systems.
Absolutely agreed. I even noted how refreshing that was. I hope he or she
stays - COLA could use "new blood" and having a new reasonable poster would
be great.
Post by flatfish+++
He/She has a posting history outside COLA and seems honest and
sincere.
Nothing wrong with that.
Completely agreed.

Oh no... Bilk will say must be a herd! :)
--
Brad Wiggins AKA cc AKA Bill Bateman:
-----
Clearly, I don't understand what I read.
-----
mach2
2013-07-30 00:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by flatfish+++
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.
It is what your herd does.
mach2 seems like a reasonable poster who uses multiple operating
systems.
Absolutely agreed. I even noted how refreshing that was. I hope he or she
stays - COLA could use "new blood" and having a new reasonable poster would
be great.
Post by flatfish+++
He/She has a posting history outside COLA and seems honest and
sincere.
Nothing wrong with that.
Completely agreed.
Oh no... Bilk will say must be a herd! :)
Thank you Snit & Flatfish. Your comments are appreciated.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-30 01:14:20 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 5:59 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by flatfish+++
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.
It is what your herd does.
mach2 seems like a reasonable poster who uses multiple operating
systems.
Absolutely agreed. I even noted how refreshing that was. I hope he or she
stays - COLA could use "new blood" and having a new reasonable poster would
be great.
Post by flatfish+++
He/She has a posting history outside COLA and seems honest and
sincere.
Nothing wrong with that.
Completely agreed.
Oh no... Bilk will say must be a herd! :)
Thank you Snit & Flatfish. Your comments are appreciated.
I am sincere in my wish that you stick around for a while. I am sure we will
run into places where we disagree, but you have not been "tainted" by the
ongoing fights and debates and other nonsense and seem to have a fairly
balanced view and a wide range of knowledge.
--
Mark Bilk describing Linux Torvalds' views as those of a psychopath and
claiming people should be held accountable for other's actions:
<http://bit.ly/13vcjtj>
mach2
2013-07-30 01:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/29/13 5:59 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by flatfish+++
Post by Snit
Post by chrisv
Post by mach2
(snip lies)
Thank you for the kind words of support.
It's real goal was to lie-about and attack the cola advocates, not to
support you. The truth is that many of the Free-software advocates in
cola also use non-Free products.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. After years of being
trolled by lying, nym-shifting assholes, like "Flatfish", we are
suspicious of people we don't know.
You lashed out at another non-believer... a heretic.
It is what your herd does.
mach2 seems like a reasonable poster who uses multiple operating
systems.
Absolutely agreed. I even noted how refreshing that was. I hope he or she
stays - COLA could use "new blood" and having a new reasonable poster would
be great.
Post by flatfish+++
He/She has a posting history outside COLA and seems honest and
sincere.
Nothing wrong with that.
Completely agreed.
Oh no... Bilk will say must be a herd! :)
Thank you Snit & Flatfish. Your comments are appreciated.
I am sincere in my wish that you stick around for a while. I am sure we will
run into places where we disagree, but you have not been "tainted" by the
ongoing fights and debates and other nonsense and seem to have a fairly
balanced view and a wide range of knowledge.
I'm pretty easy going as long as someone is outright calling me names
for no reason. We all have our own beliefs based on our own life
experiences. And people do change their spots from time to time. At
least I do. If you'd have talked to me in 1996 I would have told you
Microsoft was nothing but a big virus waiting to happen. A year later I
was getting an MCSE. LOL. I was a huge fan of NetWare for many years.
Then pretty much dropped it all of the sudden. I swore ethernet sucked
so much ass and Token Ring was king. What am I token on? :-)

I often describe myself by saying I am caught in a loop. The one
constant I have is that I like and dislike everything. I can easily play
both sides because I use them all and I see their strengths and
weaknesses in given situations. I like iPhone because of its elegance
and polish. And I don't like the iPhone because of its lack of a file
system, which creates complexity when trying to work around that
deficiency. Don't be upset. I do it for Android and Microsoft too.

I like Android for its complete customization. I can swap the rom, sub
in my own keyboard, SMS, phone dialer, launcher and on and on. What's
not to like? Lack of polish, the store is better now but wasn't always.
Many of the apps look and feel unpolished and lacking some how.

Microsoft.

The registry... Please... Whomever thought that needs to be quartered
and fed to the dogs. One minute your network works, the next minute it
thinks you're on an unknown network so it cut you off and gave you
limited access. You have to go back and tell it this is a trusted
network. I've not had any issues with viruses or malware so that to me a
non-issue. In general I find it flexible but difficult to fix should
something go wrong. It's one of those OSes that is great as long as
everything is okay. If something is not okay and can be more trouble
trying to fix it than it is worth. Likely easier to re-install. And that
bothers me because if you have a lot of activation software as I do,
then you have to remember to deactivate and reactivate.

Some apps, like QuarkXPress make this difficult. Adobe makes it somewhat
easy. And Microsoft, until recently made it non existent. I have found
myself on the phone calling them to explain my machine had a problem and
essentially asking them to allow me to activate again software that I
legally licensed from them. And I dislike that, which brings me to Linux.

I could go on all day about why I love Linux. I love the open model. I
love that it is dependable. And I mean that more than just that the
install on your machine works day after day. Only Linux lets me install
on virtually anything with no cost for the software and minimal cost for
the hardware. It's pretty damn cool that you can pick up a bunch of
parts at your local chop shop computer hardware store and have Linux up
and running with browser, office suite, FTP, IRC, GIMP, Inkscape,
Shotwell, TrueCrypt, KeePass, Thunderbird, Banshee and more all for
free. You can make a pretty high value machine for next to nothing.

I'm learning BASH script right now. And the Mac has these .DS_Store
files it sticks everywhere. On the G5 I have, I need to make DDP images
for manufacturing, but I need to get rid of those .DS_Store files
peppered all over the place. Once of the nice things about the Mac is
that is BSD based with a BASH shell. So...

#!/bin/bash
echo "Enter Folder Name under which you want to remove files:";
read fname
echo "Enter the pattern to remove (.DS_Store)";
read name1
echo "Total Count of files found on the pattern" $name1;
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" | xargs wc -l
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" -exec rm {} \;

Now I drop this little script on my Mac and no matter where they are I
can quickly and easily eradicate them.

Cool little TEDx about Linux on YouTube:


There is much to like out there. An amazing opportunity for those that
want to grab it.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-30 03:43:21 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 6:55 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by mach2
Thank you Snit & Flatfish. Your comments are appreciated.
I am sincere in my wish that you stick around for a while. I am sure we will
run into places where we disagree, but you have not been "tainted" by the
ongoing fights and debates and other nonsense and seem to have a fairly
balanced view and a wide range of knowledge.
I'm pretty easy going as long as someone is outright calling me names
for no reason.
I suspect you meant "as long as someone is *not*"... :)

Even then I do not *generally* sink to the name calling I get. Notice how
the COLA "advocates" and Bilk often call me names - but they do not show
actual examples. Ask them to try. They will either dodge or will make claims
they cannot back. They are a fearful and narrow-minded group.
Post by mach2
We all have our own beliefs based on our own life experiences. And people do
change their spots from time to time. At least I do. If you'd have talked to
me in 1996 I would have told you Microsoft was nothing but a big virus waiting
to happen. A year later I was getting an MCSE. LOL. I was a huge fan of
NetWare for many years. Then pretty much dropped it all of the sudden. I swore
ethernet sucked so much ass and Token Ring was king. What am I token on? :-)
I have changed my mind on things as well. It is a sign of learning. I also
am accused of being an "iCultist" by RonB and the like because I use a Mac
and *generally* think Apple offers a decent solution. On the other hand, I
also talk about how OS X (and the programs running on it) all too often lack
"advanced" features and give examples (such as with numbering on Pages -
supports it fine when you import from MS Office but no UI to set it up...
why not? And why can't I name "Spaces"... I could on older versions!). I
also find Apple mice to be horrible... hate the things. I use a third part
mouse and even with that it does not have an OS X driver so I use a driver
from yet another company. I think Steve Jobs was a complete *ss in his
treatment of Woz as he lied to him in stories from the early years of Apple
and think his reported comments about Android were over-stated (Samsung has
been copying Apple too much... Android, maybe in some areas - maybe not, but
nothing like Jobs is reported to have said).

I also speak of how Linux is a great solution for web servers (it is all I
use and every one of my clients uses it instead of Windows, many based on my
suggestion) and it is great in embedded devices, phones, etc. I also speak
of where I think Windows offers the best solution (many business
applications, quilting software, games, etc.). Even on the desktop there are
places where I think Linux is the best choice (where cost is a big factor
and you have hardware already, where you need mostly a web kiosk, where you
largely use the command line, where you have a limited number of mostly
custom apps, etc.). And even where people disagree with me I say use what
works best for you.

Yet I am deemed horribly anti-Linux and a "liar", even though they cannot
actually quote any lies. It is rather amazing.
Post by mach2
I often describe myself by saying I am caught in a loop. The one constant I
have is that I like and dislike everything. I can easily play both sides
because I use them all and I see their strengths and weaknesses in given
situations. I like iPhone because of its elegance and polish. And I don't like
the iPhone because of its lack of a file system, which creates complexity when
trying to work around that deficiency. Don't be upset. I do it for Android and
Microsoft too.
This is what I call "informed computing": you look to learn at least the
basics of the major solutions and know the pros and cons. I am sure there
are places we disagree but overall I think you are right with what you say.
I do not know Android as well as I do iOS, but from what I have seen I
prefer iOS. Still, iOS lacks the ability for me to set a default email
client (etc.). This is a pain... esp. when I think the Apple email client on
OS X sucks pretty bad (it does not allow you to "delete all" - how stupid is
that!). Yeah, I know, I am an iCultist all the way! :)
Post by mach2
I like Android for its complete customization. I can swap the rom, sub in my
own keyboard, SMS, phone dialer, launcher and on and on. What's not to like?
Lack of polish, the store is better now but wasn't always. Many of the apps
look and feel unpolished and lacking some how.
I agree with the lack of polish... and also find it to be slower and
jerkier, even comparing newer phones to my older iPod Touch. But, yes, being
able to customize it more is a good thing. And I think Apple's security
features with app installation on OS X is a good thing... their model on iOS
takes it too far and is as much about them getting a cut from every app as
it is about making things secure.
Post by mach2
Microsoft.
The registry... Please... Whomever thought that needs to be quartered
and fed to the dogs.
Absolutely agree. On both OS X and Windows sometimes settings go "wonky". On
OS X you go to the Preferences folder, sort by date, find the relevant ones
near the top (or just do a search), and toss them out. Relaunch the app and
all is good (though, of course your preferences have to be reset). On
Windows... an utter mess.
Post by mach2
One minute your network works, the next minute it thinks you're on an unknown
network so it cut you off and gave you limited access. You have to go back and
tell it this is a trusted network. I've not had any issues with viruses or
malware so that to me a non-issue.
I have not myself but I see customers with it often. Had a guy the other day
who had a warning from "the FBI" that he was downloading child porn and had
to pay a fine to make it go away. Of course he was not, and had he been the
FBI would not handle it that way! I was able to clean it off for him, but he
was quite scared... he does download things from torrent sites and thought
maybe he had gotten something that had child porn in it. Windows and Android
are the only OSs with any significant risk of malware.
Post by mach2
In general I find it flexible but difficult to fix should something go wrong.
It's one of those OSes that is great as long as everything is okay. If
something is not okay and can be more trouble trying to fix it than it is
worth. Likely easier to re-install. And that bothers me because if you have a
lot of activation software as I do, then you have to remember to deactivate
and reactivate.
Yes... and if you re-install the OS you have to re-install most apps. Had
someone with a Mac a couple weeks ago who had things getting really bizarre.
Tried a few things and decided to just re-install the OS. Did so from the
repair partition... and not a thing was lost. If they had some low-level
drivers those would need to be re-installed, but for most people this is a
non-issue.
Post by mach2
Some apps, like QuarkXPress make this difficult. Adobe makes it somewhat
easy.
On OS X, Adobe is one of the few companies that spews files all over the
place like is the norm on Windows.

Oh, and what is it with Windows installers wanting to put toolbars and other
junk on your computer. NO! Arg. It is annoying.
Post by mach2
And Microsoft, until recently made it non existent. I have found myself on the
phone calling them to explain my machine had a problem and essentially asking
them to allow me to activate again software that I legally licensed from them.
And I dislike that, which brings me to Linux.
Yes: having to call and ask for permission to use the software you already
paid for is a bit insane... though sometimes unavoidable. But, yes, with
open source you do not have to worry about that.
Post by mach2
I could go on all day about why I love Linux. I love the open model. I love
that it is dependable. And I mean that more than just that the install on your
machine works day after day. Only Linux lets me install on virtually anything
with no cost for the software and minimal cost for the hardware.
Yes: cost is a big reason to like Linux.
Post by mach2
It's pretty damn cool that you can pick up a bunch of parts at your local chop
shop computer hardware store and have Linux up and running with browser,
office suite, FTP, IRC, GIMP, Inkscape, Shotwell, TrueCrypt, KeePass,
Thunderbird, Banshee and more all for free. You can make a pretty high value
machine for next to nothing.
Yes. These are generally hobby machines, but they are another niche where
desktop Linux makes sense.
Post by mach2
I'm learning BASH script right now. And the Mac has these .DS_Store files it
sticks everywhere. On the G5 I have, I need to make DDP images for
manufacturing, but I need to get rid of those .DS_Store files peppered all
over the place. Once of the nice things about the Mac is that is BSD based
with a BASH shell. So...
#!/bin/bash
echo "Enter Folder Name under which you want to remove files:";
read fname
echo "Enter the pattern to remove (.DS_Store)";
read name1
echo "Total Count of files found on the pattern" $name1;
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" | xargs wc -l
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" -exec rm {} \;
Now I drop this little script on my Mac and no matter where they are I
can quickly and easily eradicate them.
You can also run this command:

sudo find / -name ".DS_Store" -depth -exec rm {} \;

Also have seen:

sudo find . -name '*.DS_Store' -type f -delete

Either should work... as will all sorts of other options you can find here:
<http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20031121213814221>. Can even
use Automator or whatever to make it a system service and run it with a
couple clicks. The same link also points to some programs that do it
automatically, such as "Chop": <http://zenonez.com/chop/>.

I do not have that, but one thing I have seen with Mountain Lion is it
doubles things in the launch services sometimes. No idea why. I used
Automator to create a System Service and run it... takes a few seconds and
all is well... no more duplicates in the "Open With..." dialog.
Post by mach2
http://youtu.be/7XTHdcmjenI
Thank you... excellent video I had not seen before. His stock chart, though,
is very selectively done. Especially like how he brings out how Apple uses a
lot of open source components. It show how absurd the claims from some in
COLA are when they say I am an "iCultist" but hate open source. Huh? Makes
no sense.

Another good point comes in the comments about how viciously defending ideas
and disagreement is *good*. I would love to see COLA grow in this direction
- instead too many run away from ideas the do not like and refuse to even
try to defend their ideas. Do not know how much you have been following the
discussions about comparing Linux to the competition, but it started with
Bilk and I. He claimed Linux offered a better experience... I offered a fair
and reasonable way to compare. And Bilk freaked out, refused to do so, and
just resorted to name calling, insults, accusations, and worse. Just a
shame.

I often speak of Linus Torvalds, Jim Zemlin, and Mark Shuttleworth as
reasonable people in the open source world. Wish the COLA "advocates" where
more like that.

Then there is Stallman... love the GPL and some of his other work, but the
guy supports some truly repulsive things. To even mention that though is
heresy in COLA. Amazing how fearful the "advocates" are of even thinking of
his poor behavior and comments.
Post by mach2
There is much to like out there. An amazing opportunity for those that
want to grab it.
--
"Maybe it wouldn't be quite as good, but we would all be okay."
- Richard Stallman, speaking about if his ideas were followed
mach2
2013-07-30 04:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/29/13 6:55 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by mach2
Thank you Snit & Flatfish. Your comments are appreciated.
I am sincere in my wish that you stick around for a while. I am sure we will
run into places where we disagree, but you have not been "tainted" by the
ongoing fights and debates and other nonsense and seem to have a fairly
balanced view and a wide range of knowledge.
I'm pretty easy going as long as someone is outright calling me names
for no reason.
I suspect you meant "as long as someone is *not*"... :)
Even then I do not *generally* sink to the name calling I get. Notice how
the COLA "advocates" and Bilk often call me names - but they do not show
actual examples. Ask them to try. They will either dodge or will make claims
they cannot back. They are a fearful and narrow-minded group.
Post by mach2
We all have our own beliefs based on our own life experiences. And people do
change their spots from time to time. At least I do. If you'd have talked to
me in 1996 I would have told you Microsoft was nothing but a big virus waiting
to happen. A year later I was getting an MCSE. LOL. I was a huge fan of
NetWare for many years. Then pretty much dropped it all of the sudden. I swore
ethernet sucked so much ass and Token Ring was king. What am I token on? :-)
I have changed my mind on things as well. It is a sign of learning. I also
am accused of being an "iCultist" by RonB and the like because I use a Mac
and *generally* think Apple offers a decent solution. On the other hand, I
also talk about how OS X (and the programs running on it) all too often lack
"advanced" features and give examples (such as with numbering on Pages -
supports it fine when you import from MS Office but no UI to set it up...
why not? And why can't I name "Spaces"... I could on older versions!). I
also find Apple mice to be horrible... hate the things. I use a third part
mouse and even with that it does not have an OS X driver so I use a driver
from yet another company. I think Steve Jobs was a complete *ss in his
treatment of Woz as he lied to him in stories from the early years of Apple
and think his reported comments about Android were over-stated (Samsung has
been copying Apple too much... Android, maybe in some areas - maybe not, but
nothing like Jobs is reported to have said).
I also speak of how Linux is a great solution for web servers (it is all I
use and every one of my clients uses it instead of Windows, many based on my
suggestion) and it is great in embedded devices, phones, etc. I also speak
of where I think Windows offers the best solution (many business
applications, quilting software, games, etc.). Even on the desktop there are
places where I think Linux is the best choice (where cost is a big factor
and you have hardware already, where you need mostly a web kiosk, where you
largely use the command line, where you have a limited number of mostly
custom apps, etc.). And even where people disagree with me I say use what
works best for you.
Yet I am deemed horribly anti-Linux and a "liar", even though they cannot
actually quote any lies. It is rather amazing.
Post by mach2
I often describe myself by saying I am caught in a loop. The one constant I
have is that I like and dislike everything. I can easily play both sides
because I use them all and I see their strengths and weaknesses in given
situations. I like iPhone because of its elegance and polish. And I don't like
the iPhone because of its lack of a file system, which creates complexity when
trying to work around that deficiency. Don't be upset. I do it for Android and
Microsoft too.
This is what I call "informed computing": you look to learn at least the
basics of the major solutions and know the pros and cons. I am sure there
are places we disagree but overall I think you are right with what you say.
I do not know Android as well as I do iOS, but from what I have seen I
prefer iOS. Still, iOS lacks the ability for me to set a default email
client (etc.). This is a pain... esp. when I think the Apple email client on
OS X sucks pretty bad (it does not allow you to "delete all" - how stupid is
that!). Yeah, I know, I am an iCultist all the way! :)
Post by mach2
I like Android for its complete customization. I can swap the rom, sub in my
own keyboard, SMS, phone dialer, launcher and on and on. What's not to like?
Lack of polish, the store is better now but wasn't always. Many of the apps
look and feel unpolished and lacking some how.
I agree with the lack of polish... and also find it to be slower and
jerkier, even comparing newer phones to my older iPod Touch. But, yes, being
able to customize it more is a good thing. And I think Apple's security
features with app installation on OS X is a good thing... their model on iOS
takes it too far and is as much about them getting a cut from every app as
it is about making things secure.
Post by mach2
Microsoft.
The registry... Please... Whomever thought that needs to be quartered
and fed to the dogs.
Absolutely agree. On both OS X and Windows sometimes settings go "wonky". On
OS X you go to the Preferences folder, sort by date, find the relevant ones
near the top (or just do a search), and toss them out. Relaunch the app and
all is good (though, of course your preferences have to be reset). On
Windows... an utter mess.
Post by mach2
One minute your network works, the next minute it thinks you're on an unknown
network so it cut you off and gave you limited access. You have to go back and
tell it this is a trusted network. I've not had any issues with viruses or
malware so that to me a non-issue.
I have not myself but I see customers with it often. Had a guy the other day
who had a warning from "the FBI" that he was downloading child porn and had
to pay a fine to make it go away. Of course he was not, and had he been the
FBI would not handle it that way! I was able to clean it off for him, but he
was quite scared... he does download things from torrent sites and thought
maybe he had gotten something that had child porn in it. Windows and Android
are the only OSs with any significant risk of malware.
Post by mach2
In general I find it flexible but difficult to fix should something go wrong.
It's one of those OSes that is great as long as everything is okay. If
something is not okay and can be more trouble trying to fix it than it is
worth. Likely easier to re-install. And that bothers me because if you have a
lot of activation software as I do, then you have to remember to deactivate
and reactivate.
Yes... and if you re-install the OS you have to re-install most apps. Had
someone with a Mac a couple weeks ago who had things getting really bizarre.
Tried a few things and decided to just re-install the OS. Did so from the
repair partition... and not a thing was lost. If they had some low-level
drivers those would need to be re-installed, but for most people this is a
non-issue.
Post by mach2
Some apps, like QuarkXPress make this difficult. Adobe makes it somewhat
easy.
On OS X, Adobe is one of the few companies that spews files all over the
place like is the norm on Windows.
Oh, and what is it with Windows installers wanting to put toolbars and other
junk on your computer. NO! Arg. It is annoying.
Post by mach2
And Microsoft, until recently made it non existent. I have found myself on the
phone calling them to explain my machine had a problem and essentially asking
them to allow me to activate again software that I legally licensed from them.
And I dislike that, which brings me to Linux.
Yes: having to call and ask for permission to use the software you already
paid for is a bit insane... though sometimes unavoidable. But, yes, with
open source you do not have to worry about that.
Post by mach2
I could go on all day about why I love Linux. I love the open model. I love
that it is dependable. And I mean that more than just that the install on your
machine works day after day. Only Linux lets me install on virtually anything
with no cost for the software and minimal cost for the hardware.
Yes: cost is a big reason to like Linux.
Post by mach2
It's pretty damn cool that you can pick up a bunch of parts at your local chop
shop computer hardware store and have Linux up and running with browser,
office suite, FTP, IRC, GIMP, Inkscape, Shotwell, TrueCrypt, KeePass,
Thunderbird, Banshee and more all for free. You can make a pretty high value
machine for next to nothing.
Yes. These are generally hobby machines, but they are another niche where
desktop Linux makes sense.
Post by mach2
I'm learning BASH script right now. And the Mac has these .DS_Store files it
sticks everywhere. On the G5 I have, I need to make DDP images for
manufacturing, but I need to get rid of those .DS_Store files peppered all
over the place. Once of the nice things about the Mac is that is BSD based
with a BASH shell. So...
#!/bin/bash
echo "Enter Folder Name under which you want to remove files:";
read fname
echo "Enter the pattern to remove (.DS_Store)";
read name1
echo "Total Count of files found on the pattern" $name1;
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" | xargs wc -l
find $fname -type f -name "$name1" -exec rm {} \;
Now I drop this little script on my Mac and no matter where they are I
can quickly and easily eradicate them.
sudo find / -name ".DS_Store" -depth -exec rm {} \;
sudo find . -name '*.DS_Store' -type f -delete
<http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20031121213814221>. Can even
use Automator or whatever to make it a system service and run it with a
couple clicks. The same link also points to some programs that do it
automatically, such as "Chop": <http://zenonez.com/chop/>.
I do not have that, but one thing I have seen with Mountain Lion is it
doubles things in the launch services sometimes. No idea why. I used
Automator to create a System Service and run it... takes a few seconds and
all is well... no more duplicates in the "Open With..." dialog.
Post by mach2
http://youtu.be/7XTHdcmjenI
Thank you... excellent video I had not seen before. His stock chart, though,
is very selectively done. Especially like how he brings out how Apple uses a
lot of open source components. It show how absurd the claims from some in
COLA are when they say I am an "iCultist" but hate open source. Huh? Makes
no sense.
Another good point comes in the comments about how viciously defending ideas
and disagreement is *good*. I would love to see COLA grow in this direction
- instead too many run away from ideas the do not like and refuse to even
try to defend their ideas. Do not know how much you have been following the
discussions about comparing Linux to the competition, but it started with
Bilk and I. He claimed Linux offered a better experience... I offered a fair
and reasonable way to compare. And Bilk freaked out, refused to do so, and
just resorted to name calling, insults, accusations, and worse. Just a
shame.
I often speak of Linus Torvalds, Jim Zemlin, and Mark Shuttleworth as
reasonable people in the open source world. Wish the COLA "advocates" where
more like that.
Then there is Stallman... love the GPL and some of his other work, but the
guy supports some truly repulsive things. To even mention that though is
heresy in COLA. Amazing how fearful the "advocates" are of even thinking of
his poor behavior and comments.
Post by mach2
There is much to like out there. An amazing opportunity for those that
want to grab it.
I have not been watching usenet for a very long time. The last time I
was on usenet I used to use it for selling computer parts, buying ram,
etc when 16 MBs ran about $400 used. ba.market.forsale I think. And
ba.market.computers. Both of which are crickets now. ebay took over all.
I also used to use a cheap ad rag in my area called "The Advertiser"
which was much cheaper than an ad in the local paper.

When I was on usenet is was much much bigger than it is now. Not sure if
I mentioned it but slip.net was the provider I had for my PPP
connection, which offered telnet, tin, pine, etc. Back then if you had
netcom.com you kind of got the basic tools like usenet as part of the
package. We were all basically sold those services and so they were
generally used services. Ask even a 20 year old tech now what usenet is
and I'd wager you get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like asking someone
if they have used a BBS. Again, they have no idea what that is.

When I was getting my first NetWare cert, again Usenet was helpful.

You seem pretty normal to me. I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind
though. There is a psychological thing that goes on when we decide on
something. That's your mind saying that your logic is pure and true.
Whatever you ended up with is in your mind the correct thing. If you buy
a green handa, it's because the green handa is the best car for you.
Best for the things you value the most. If it weren't, you'd not have
bought it. You don't go to the dealership, find the 3rd or 4th best car
and buy that, do you? No, of course not.

At the time of purchase you have reasoned what best is and justified it
in your mind. Now someone else comes around and they have a different
car and guess what. They too have decided it is best. If you have a
conversation with this person, you will both disagree. It cannot be
otherwise. The minute you no longer feel what you have is acceptable you
will find yourself wanting something else, which will be the new
justified best in your mind. And the cycle starts all over again.

If you walk into a Linux room, as a Mac user, right there you have
conflict. Nothing you can do about it.

I use all three. I have no conflict with any operating system. The users
are another story. They disagree and will justify it in different ways.
They hate bill gates and love Linus. The google guys love Google, think
ads in your email is perfectly fine and defend targeted ads. They don't
mind being the product. I do mind being the product. I don't use
Google's GMail. I prefer to pay for email. I prefer that email is the
product, not me because I don't want ads in my in box.

Some people like the reality that not a lot of people understand Linux.
It makes them feel good to know something not easily obtainable. A new
user shows up and that new user is a threat. They want to learn and thus
make the insecure personality that much more insecure. Pretty soon they
the insecure lash out in hateful ways with a hope that the new user is
discouraged and leaves. Then the same insecure user speaks about no one
else understands. Which is actually a good thing for that individual.
They like it that way and don't want any change. I'm sure they are good
people. Probably perfectly normal around their friends. But in this
environment you will have argument. They will search the web for
anything and everything that justifies their agenda and then parade it
here in your face and call you an idiot for not seeing it. I just
disagree. So long as there is no name calling, I don't care if they
believe pigs fly. We're all irrational about something. That's what
humans do. We're not machines.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-30 04:57:35 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 9:32 PM, in article
dLWdnYCzDIh-***@supernews.com, "mach2" <***@hushmail.com>
wrote:

...
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Thank you... excellent video I had not seen before. His stock chart, though,
is very selectively done. Especially like how he brings out how Apple uses a
lot of open source components. It show how absurd the claims from some in
COLA are when they say I am an "iCultist" but hate open source. Huh? Makes no
sense.
Another good point comes in the comments about how viciously defending ideas
and disagreement is *good*. I would love to see COLA grow in this direction -
instead too many run away from ideas the do not like and refuse to even try
to defend their ideas. Do not know how much you have been following the
discussions about comparing Linux to the competition, but it started with
Bilk and I. He claimed Linux offered a better experience... I offered a fair
and reasonable way to compare. And Bilk freaked out, refused to do so, and
just resorted to name calling, insults, accusations, and worse. Just a shame.
I often speak of Linus Torvalds, Jim Zemlin, and Mark Shuttleworth as
reasonable people in the open source world. Wish the COLA "advocates" where
more like that.
Then there is Stallman... love the GPL and some of his other work, but the
guy supports some truly repulsive things. To even mention that though is
heresy in COLA. Amazing how fearful the "advocates" are of even thinking of
his poor behavior and comments.
There is much to like out there. An amazing opportunity for those that want
to grab it.
I have not been watching usenet for a very long time. The last time I
was on usenet I used to use it for selling computer parts, buying ram,
etc when 16 MBs ran about $400 used. ba.market.forsale I think. And
ba.market.computers. Both of which are crickets now. ebay took over all.
I also used to use a cheap ad rag in my area called "The Advertiser"
which was much cheaper than an ad in the local paper.
I have used Usenet off and on since the late 1980s. Some posts of mine from
1995:

<http://goo.gl/0wHM> Jul 18 1995
-----
if DOS were a combo of UNIX and Mac it would be cool. I
just wish we had something that combined the two. In theory
that is the way both UNIX and Mac are growing
-----

<http://goo.gl/EDip> Jul 19 1995
-----
But UNIX does have some advantages over the Mac... a CLI
would be a great addition to the Mac. I would say that
between Mac and UNIX you have the best operating systems
around.
-----

<http://goo.gl/vrLf> Aug 10 1995
-----
The Mac is not the end all in computer technology. Where it
fails, UNIX excels. Between the two, there is almost no task
that computers would be used for that can not be done. And
one or the other will beat the competition in almost every
area.
-----

Apple finally moved to OS X, and Linux has gained a GUI that is really very
much like what Apple had back in those days. :)
Post by mach2
When I was on usenet is was much much bigger than it is now. Not sure if
I mentioned it but slip.net was the provider I had for my PPP
connection, which offered telnet, tin, pine, etc.
I was using tin back on those days for my Usenet access... and I used pine
and telnetted a lot. Not so much these days.
Post by mach2
Back then if you had netcom.com you kind of got the basic tools like usenet as
part of the package. We were all basically sold those services and so they
were generally used services. Ask even a 20 year old tech now what usenet is
and I'd wager you get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like asking someone if
they have used a BBS. Again, they have no idea what that is.
I used my first BBSs on an old Apple IIe with a 300 baud modem where you
could see the text being drawn on the screen. Things have changed just a
little. :)
Post by mach2
When I was getting my first NetWare cert, again Usenet was helpful.
You seem pretty normal to me. I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind
though. There is a psychological thing that goes on when we decide on
something. That's your mind saying that your logic is pure and true.
Whatever you ended up with is in your mind the correct thing. If you buy
a green handa, it's because the green handa is the best car for you.
Best for the things you value the most. If it weren't, you'd not have
bought it. You don't go to the dealership, find the 3rd or 4th best car
and buy that, do you? No, of course not.
Well, I have a low end car - I would prefer a higher end one but am not
wealthy... but I get your idea. Yes: I buy and use what works best for me
given the tool itself and the cost, availability, support, etc.
Post by mach2
At the time of purchase you have reasoned what best is and justified it
in your mind. Now someone else comes around and they have a different
car and guess what. They too have decided it is best. If you have a
conversation with this person, you will both disagree. It cannot be
otherwise. The minute you no longer feel what you have is acceptable you
will find yourself wanting something else, which will be the new
justified best in your mind. And the cycle starts all over again.
If you walk into a Linux room, as a Mac user, right there you have
conflict. Nothing you can do about it.
But you seem to be open to trying multiple solutions. Again, that is what I
call "informed computing" and what I advocate for. Yes, I use a Mac as my
main system - and on it I have Parallels running multiple versions of
Windows and Linux.
Post by mach2
I use all three. I have no conflict with any operating system. The users
are another story. They disagree and will justify it in different ways.
They hate bill gates and love Linus. The google guys love Google, think
ads in your email is perfectly fine and defend targeted ads. They don't
mind being the product. I do mind being the product. I don't use
Google's GMail. I prefer to pay for email. I prefer that email is the
product, not me because I don't want ads in my in box.
My ISP moved to gMail in the backend, but at least I do not get their ads.
Still, Google collects all the email that goes through my ISP. That does
bother me some.
Post by mach2
Some people like the reality that not a lot of people understand Linux.
It makes them feel good to know something not easily obtainable.
Very true. It is their way of feeling special.
Post by mach2
A new user shows up and that new user is a threat. They want to learn and thus
make the insecure personality that much more insecure. Pretty soon they the
insecure lash out in hateful ways with a hope that the new user is discouraged
and leaves.
Or, worse yet for many in COLA, the new person *disagrees* with their shared
views. The "advocates" in COLA have very few disagreements about
technology... they are called the "herd" for a reason. Very cult-like. I
admit it: it is one of the things that keeps me here. My first degree was in
psychology and it interests me to watch them.
Post by mach2
Then the same insecure user speaks about no one else understands. Which is
actually a good thing for that individual. They like it that way and don't
want any change. I'm sure they are good people. Probably perfectly normal
around their friends. But in this environment you will have argument. They
will search the web for anything and everything that justifies their agenda
and then parade it here in your face and call you an idiot for not seeing it.
They do not even do that... they do not even try to back their claims. Look
at my recent challenge with Bilk (and others) to compare desktop Linux with
the competition. Most have gone on the offensive for my even suggesting such
a thing (and having the audacity to even *show* the competition). TomB is an
exception to that: he is not following my exact "rules", which is fine, but
he is comparing. And so far we have not fully agreed but have discussed two
points: NTFS writing (Windows wins by default here - I think we can all
agree, and then Linux next, with OS X being able to do what Linux can but
needing the user to install a driver and reboot - so it is in last place)
and looking at attachments in email (and by extension looking at file
previews in general). OS X wins that... though by how much we did not agree
on.
Post by mach2
I just disagree. So long as there is no name calling, I don't care if they
believe pigs fly. We're all irrational about something. That's what humans do.
We're not machines.
Exactly correct.
--
"But you used an untraceable "burner phone" which I could not call back to."
-- Mark Bilk, showing he thinks people cannot call "burner phones" even if
you have their number from Caller ID. Huh? How is that again, Bilk?
mach2
2013-07-30 06:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/29/13 9:32 PM, in article
...
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Thank you... excellent video I had not seen before. His stock chart, though,
is very selectively done. Especially like how he brings out how Apple uses a
lot of open source components. It show how absurd the claims from some in
COLA are when they say I am an "iCultist" but hate open source. Huh? Makes no
sense.
Another good point comes in the comments about how viciously defending ideas
and disagreement is *good*. I would love to see COLA grow in this direction -
instead too many run away from ideas the do not like and refuse to even try
to defend their ideas. Do not know how much you have been following the
discussions about comparing Linux to the competition, but it started with
Bilk and I. He claimed Linux offered a better experience... I offered a fair
and reasonable way to compare. And Bilk freaked out, refused to do so, and
just resorted to name calling, insults, accusations, and worse. Just a shame.
I often speak of Linus Torvalds, Jim Zemlin, and Mark Shuttleworth as
reasonable people in the open source world. Wish the COLA "advocates" where
more like that.
Then there is Stallman... love the GPL and some of his other work, but the
guy supports some truly repulsive things. To even mention that though is
heresy in COLA. Amazing how fearful the "advocates" are of even thinking of
his poor behavior and comments.
There is much to like out there. An amazing opportunity for those that want
to grab it.
I have not been watching usenet for a very long time. The last time I
was on usenet I used to use it for selling computer parts, buying ram,
etc when 16 MBs ran about $400 used. ba.market.forsale I think. And
ba.market.computers. Both of which are crickets now. ebay took over all.
I also used to use a cheap ad rag in my area called "The Advertiser"
which was much cheaper than an ad in the local paper.
I have used Usenet off and on since the late 1980s. Some posts of mine from
<http://goo.gl/0wHM> Jul 18 1995
-----
if DOS were a combo of UNIX and Mac it would be cool. I
just wish we had something that combined the two. In theory
that is the way both UNIX and Mac are growing
-----
<http://goo.gl/EDip> Jul 19 1995
-----
But UNIX does have some advantages over the Mac... a CLI
would be a great addition to the Mac. I would say that
between Mac and UNIX you have the best operating systems
around.
-----
<http://goo.gl/vrLf> Aug 10 1995
-----
The Mac is not the end all in computer technology. Where it
fails, UNIX excels. Between the two, there is almost no task
that computers would be used for that can not be done. And
one or the other will beat the competition in almost every
area.
-----
Apple finally moved to OS X, and Linux has gained a GUI that is really very
much like what Apple had back in those days. :)
Post by mach2
When I was on usenet is was much much bigger than it is now. Not sure if
I mentioned it but slip.net was the provider I had for my PPP
connection, which offered telnet, tin, pine, etc.
I was using tin back on those days for my Usenet access... and I used pine
and telnetted a lot. Not so much these days.
Post by mach2
Back then if you had netcom.com you kind of got the basic tools like usenet as
part of the package. We were all basically sold those services and so they
were generally used services. Ask even a 20 year old tech now what usenet is
and I'd wager you get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like asking someone if
they have used a BBS. Again, they have no idea what that is.
I used my first BBSs on an old Apple IIe with a 300 baud modem where you
could see the text being drawn on the screen. Things have changed just a
little. :)
Post by mach2
When I was getting my first NetWare cert, again Usenet was helpful.
You seem pretty normal to me. I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind
though. There is a psychological thing that goes on when we decide on
something. That's your mind saying that your logic is pure and true.
Whatever you ended up with is in your mind the correct thing. If you buy
a green handa, it's because the green handa is the best car for you.
Best for the things you value the most. If it weren't, you'd not have
bought it. You don't go to the dealership, find the 3rd or 4th best car
and buy that, do you? No, of course not.
Well, I have a low end car - I would prefer a higher end one but am not
wealthy... but I get your idea. Yes: I buy and use what works best for me
given the tool itself and the cost, availability, support, etc.
Post by mach2
At the time of purchase you have reasoned what best is and justified it
in your mind. Now someone else comes around and they have a different
car and guess what. They too have decided it is best. If you have a
conversation with this person, you will both disagree. It cannot be
otherwise. The minute you no longer feel what you have is acceptable you
will find yourself wanting something else, which will be the new
justified best in your mind. And the cycle starts all over again.
If you walk into a Linux room, as a Mac user, right there you have
conflict. Nothing you can do about it.
But you seem to be open to trying multiple solutions. Again, that is what I
call "informed computing" and what I advocate for. Yes, I use a Mac as my
main system - and on it I have Parallels running multiple versions of
Windows and Linux.
Post by mach2
I use all three. I have no conflict with any operating system. The users
are another story. They disagree and will justify it in different ways.
They hate bill gates and love Linus. The google guys love Google, think
ads in your email is perfectly fine and defend targeted ads. They don't
mind being the product. I do mind being the product. I don't use
Google's GMail. I prefer to pay for email. I prefer that email is the
product, not me because I don't want ads in my in box.
My ISP moved to gMail in the backend, but at least I do not get their ads.
Still, Google collects all the email that goes through my ISP. That does
bother me some.
Post by mach2
Some people like the reality that not a lot of people understand Linux.
It makes them feel good to know something not easily obtainable.
Very true. It is their way of feeling special.
Post by mach2
A new user shows up and that new user is a threat. They want to learn and thus
make the insecure personality that much more insecure. Pretty soon they the
insecure lash out in hateful ways with a hope that the new user is discouraged
and leaves.
Or, worse yet for many in COLA, the new person *disagrees* with their shared
views. The "advocates" in COLA have very few disagreements about
technology... they are called the "herd" for a reason. Very cult-like. I
admit it: it is one of the things that keeps me here. My first degree was in
psychology and it interests me to watch them.
Post by mach2
Then the same insecure user speaks about no one else understands. Which is
actually a good thing for that individual. They like it that way and don't
want any change. I'm sure they are good people. Probably perfectly normal
around their friends. But in this environment you will have argument. They
will search the web for anything and everything that justifies their agenda
and then parade it here in your face and call you an idiot for not seeing it.
They do not even do that... they do not even try to back their claims. Look
at my recent challenge with Bilk (and others) to compare desktop Linux with
the competition. Most have gone on the offensive for my even suggesting such
a thing (and having the audacity to even *show* the competition). TomB is an
exception to that: he is not following my exact "rules", which is fine, but
he is comparing. And so far we have not fully agreed but have discussed two
points: NTFS writing (Windows wins by default here - I think we can all
agree, and then Linux next, with OS X being able to do what Linux can but
needing the user to install a driver and reboot - so it is in last place)
and looking at attachments in email (and by extension looking at file
previews in general). OS X wins that... though by how much we did not agree
on.
Post by mach2
I just disagree. So long as there is no name calling, I don't care if they
believe pigs fly. We're all irrational about something. That's what humans do.
We're not machines.
Exactly correct.
I have not read the arguments and comps so I cannot really comment on
any of it. In general I'd say I like that Unix or Linux doesn't allow
the GUI inside of ring 0, where as MacOSX and Windows both do allow for
this. The GUI on the Mac or Windows can bring down the whole system as a
result. It has direct access to the hardware and makes both platforms
inherently less stable that Unix, Linux.

I just build a Linux server over the weekend. Not a big task at all. No
GUI by default, but even if there were a GUI it is a service running on
top of the OS, not welded into the fabric of the OS itself.

If you look at Microsoft's latest Server 2012 Core editions you see the
same thing now. Microsoft finally acknowledged that the GUI is a major
part of the potential security and stability threat to their server
platform. By default, core server does not have a GUI and you can add it
and remove it after the fact.

I mention this because I have both a dual G5 and a MacMini intel Mac at
my place of business. The dual G5 lasts for months before it kernel
panics for no particular reason. I'll just hear the fan kick into ultra
high gear and walk over and see it completely in a kernel panic. Hard
reset and it's fine.

Windows. Typically I see a very slow memory leak and it eventually gets
the better of the system and causes a reboot. It takes quite a while but
it gets there. Sometimes it is something else entirely. Like a DVD-ROM
drive stops functioning correctly. Again, reboot it and it goes away.

Windows is also essentially always in root mode and that right there
makes it much more likely to get compromised.

I wouldn't compare DOS to Unix or even call it a CLI exactly. Though
that is what we called the AmigaDOS prompt. The shell is much more than
a command line. It's access to hundreds of commands that can be easily
piped together to do amazing things.

To be really honest, I thought Gates was right to be scared out of his
mind when he wrote that October document. Here comes Linux. It's free.
How do you compete with that? The only way I would think to compete with
free is to be much better to justify the cost. But as you say, for a web
server, you'd use Linux. As would I. For a super computing cluster, the
world pretty much agrees that Unix is best and the reasons are easily
justified.

Microsoft has momentum going for it. All of those users are used to
using their software. The money they earn turns into marketing and they
spend about $8 billion a year in research and development. That
translates to new products, like currier, which never saw the light of
day, and other's like Surface, which isn't selling well. A lot of it
goes right back into Windows and Office, which is a huge cash cow and
keeps the corporate world happy and everyone likes happy cows.

It's been about 20 years for Linux give or take. And in that time I have
seen SCO die. UnixWare is who knows where. Solaris is pretty much on the
way out. No cares about Sparcs anymore. MIPS? Who cares. Linux took over
the whole Unix market and is more successful on the desktop than any of
those older platforms.

I welcome your opinion. My own thoughts are that if the corporate world
focused as much attention on software for Linux as they do for Windows,
then Linux would be better than par for all the reasons mentioned above.
I don't see Linux as deficient. I see commercial development as being
deficient. The core foundation of Linux is very good. It's important to
separate the two, a) the platform and b) the software that runs on top
of it.

I often think other countries might do more or Linux than the United
States. Perhaps run with it from day one out of need more than anything
else. A poor country can begin with Linux much the way the United States
began with the Apple IIe and DOS. Who knows what those youths will do
with it. What they will create with it, and what standards they will
adopt because of it.

How many American companies build PCs now? I can't think of any. So why
do we think our software will always come from the likes of Apple or
Microsoft. Google was used in China. It's not unthinkable that Baidu
might gain market share in America. And for that matter, maybe the next
great word processor will something from some company we've never heard
of. Maybe the next hot cell phone will be something we've never heard of.


I'm just thinking out loud.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-30 16:12:13 UTC
Permalink
On 7/29/13 11:07 PM, in article
j-***@supernews.com, "mach2" <***@hushmail.com>
wrote:

...
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I have used Usenet off and on since the late 1980s. Some posts of mine from
<http://goo.gl/0wHM> Jul 18 1995
-----
if DOS were a combo of UNIX and Mac it would be cool. I
just wish we had something that combined the two. In theory
that is the way both UNIX and Mac are growing
-----
<http://goo.gl/EDip> Jul 19 1995
-----
But UNIX does have some advantages over the Mac... a CLI
would be a great addition to the Mac. I would say that
between Mac and UNIX you have the best operating systems
around.
-----
<http://goo.gl/vrLf> Aug 10 1995
-----
The Mac is not the end all in computer technology. Where it
fails, UNIX excels. Between the two, there is almost no task
that computers would be used for that can not be done. And
one or the other will beat the competition in almost every
area.
-----
Apple finally moved to OS X, and Linux has gained a GUI that is really very
much like what Apple had back in those days. :)
Post by mach2
When I was on usenet is was much much bigger than it is now. Not sure if
I mentioned it but slip.net was the provider I had for my PPP
connection, which offered telnet, tin, pine, etc.
I was using tin back on those days for my Usenet access... and I used pine
and telnetted a lot. Not so much these days.
Post by mach2
Back then if you had netcom.com you kind of got the basic tools like usenet as
part of the package. We were all basically sold those services and so they
were generally used services. Ask even a 20 year old tech now what usenet is
and I'd wager you get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like asking someone if
they have used a BBS. Again, they have no idea what that is.
I used my first BBSs on an old Apple IIe with a 300 baud modem where you
could see the text being drawn on the screen. Things have changed just a
little. :)
Post by mach2
When I was getting my first NetWare cert, again Usenet was helpful.
You seem pretty normal to me. I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind
though. There is a psychological thing that goes on when we decide on
something. That's your mind saying that your logic is pure and true.
Whatever you ended up with is in your mind the correct thing. If you buy
a green handa, it's because the green handa is the best car for you.
Best for the things you value the most. If it weren't, you'd not have
bought it. You don't go to the dealership, find the 3rd or 4th best car
and buy that, do you? No, of course not.
Well, I have a low end car - I would prefer a higher end one but am not
wealthy... but I get your idea. Yes: I buy and use what works best for me
given the tool itself and the cost, availability, support, etc.
Post by mach2
At the time of purchase you have reasoned what best is and justified it
in your mind. Now someone else comes around and they have a different
car and guess what. They too have decided it is best. If you have a
conversation with this person, you will both disagree. It cannot be
otherwise. The minute you no longer feel what you have is acceptable you
will find yourself wanting something else, which will be the new
justified best in your mind. And the cycle starts all over again.
If you walk into a Linux room, as a Mac user, right there you have
conflict. Nothing you can do about it.
But you seem to be open to trying multiple solutions. Again, that is what I
call "informed computing" and what I advocate for. Yes, I use a Mac as my
main system - and on it I have Parallels running multiple versions of
Windows and Linux.
Post by mach2
I use all three. I have no conflict with any operating system. The users
are another story. They disagree and will justify it in different ways.
They hate bill gates and love Linus. The google guys love Google, think
ads in your email is perfectly fine and defend targeted ads. They don't
mind being the product. I do mind being the product. I don't use
Google's GMail. I prefer to pay for email. I prefer that email is the
product, not me because I don't want ads in my in box.
My ISP moved to gMail in the backend, but at least I do not get their ads.
Still, Google collects all the email that goes through my ISP. That does
bother me some.
Post by mach2
Some people like the reality that not a lot of people understand Linux.
It makes them feel good to know something not easily obtainable.
Very true. It is their way of feeling special.
Post by mach2
A new user shows up and that new user is a threat. They want to learn and thus
make the insecure personality that much more insecure. Pretty soon they the
insecure lash out in hateful ways with a hope that the new user is discouraged
and leaves.
Or, worse yet for many in COLA, the new person *disagrees* with their shared
views. The "advocates" in COLA have very few disagreements about
technology... they are called the "herd" for a reason. Very cult-like. I
admit it: it is one of the things that keeps me here. My first degree was in
psychology and it interests me to watch them.
Post by mach2
Then the same insecure user speaks about no one else understands. Which is
actually a good thing for that individual. They like it that way and don't
want any change. I'm sure they are good people. Probably perfectly normal
around their friends. But in this environment you will have argument. They
will search the web for anything and everything that justifies their agenda
and then parade it here in your face and call you an idiot for not seeing it.
They do not even do that... they do not even try to back their claims. Look
at my recent challenge with Bilk (and others) to compare desktop Linux with
the competition. Most have gone on the offensive for my even suggesting such
a thing (and having the audacity to even *show* the competition). TomB is an
exception to that: he is not following my exact "rules", which is fine, but
he is comparing. And so far we have not fully agreed but have discussed two
points: NTFS writing (Windows wins by default here - I think we can all
agree, and then Linux next, with OS X being able to do what Linux can but
needing the user to install a driver and reboot - so it is in last place)
and looking at attachments in email (and by extension looking at file
previews in general). OS X wins that... though by how much we did not agree
on.
Post by mach2
I just disagree. So long as there is no name calling, I don't care if they
believe pigs fly. We're all irrational about something. That's what humans do.
We're not machines.
Exactly correct.
I have not read the arguments and comps so I cannot really comment on
any of it. In general I'd say I like that Unix or Linux doesn't allow
the GUI inside of ring 0, where as MacOSX and Windows both do allow for
this. The GUI on the Mac or Windows can bring down the whole system as a
result. It has direct access to the hardware and makes both platforms
inherently less stable that Unix, Linux.
This is a slightly dated look at the make-up of OS X, but the GUI is pretty
far removed from the kernel:

<Loading Image...>

Darwin sits at the core and you have all sort of graphics and media toolkits
sitting above that with the application frameworks one level higher and only
then do you get to the GUI side of things. They are split pretty well on OS
X.
Post by mach2
I just build a Linux server over the weekend. Not a big task at all. No
GUI by default, but even if there were a GUI it is a service running on
top of the OS, not welded into the fabric of the OS itself.
If you look at Microsoft's latest Server 2012 Core editions you see the
same thing now. Microsoft finally acknowledged that the GUI is a major
part of the potential security and stability threat to their server
platform. By default, core server does not have a GUI and you can add it
and remove it after the fact.
It is true that Apple makes no version of OS X without the GUI.
Post by mach2
I mention this because I have both a dual G5 and a MacMini intel Mac at
my place of business. The dual G5 lasts for months before it kernel
panics for no particular reason. I'll just hear the fan kick into ultra
high gear and walk over and see it completely in a kernel panic. Hard
reset and it's fine.
I would guess it is having overheating issues. You can get tools that will
monitor its heat and check it from time to time to see how hot it is
getting.
Post by mach2
Windows. Typically I see a very slow memory leak and it eventually gets
the better of the system and causes a reboot. It takes quite a while but
it gets there. Sometimes it is something else entirely. Like a DVD-ROM
drive stops functioning correctly. Again, reboot it and it goes away.
OS X deals with memory poorly compared to Linux and even Windows, though
Mountain Lion seems to have improved it quite a bit. The next version of OS
X is supposed to make this much better. I hope so. Also hope Apple at some
point moves to a file system where they can do block level backups (right
now if you have a VM running the whole virtual drive, generally 10s of GB,
will get backed up every hour).
Post by mach2
Windows is also essentially always in root mode and that right there
makes it much more likely to get compromised.
I wouldn't compare DOS to Unix or even call it a CLI exactly. Though
that is what we called the AmigaDOS prompt. The shell is much more than
a command line. It's access to hundreds of commands that can be easily
piped together to do amazing things.
Correct. And what I was wanting way back in 1995 (and before, really, just
cannot find any posts about it) was an OS that had the Unix-like shell
capabilities plus a Mac-like GUI. I predicted Apple and Unix would head that
way. With OS X Apple did much what I said, and Linux has done much what I
said on the "Unix" side (even though it is not a "real" UNIX).

I think it can be argued Linux does the underbelly "Unixy" stuff better
(even though OS X is a certified UNIX and Linux is not) and OS X does the
top end GUI stuff better. So their is still room for improvement for both,
but in general my predictions from 1995 have turned out to be true.
Post by mach2
To be really honest, I thought Gates was right to be scared out of his
mind when he wrote that October document. Here comes Linux. It's free.
How do you compete with that? The only way I would think to compete with
free is to be much better to justify the cost. But as you say, for a web
server, you'd use Linux. As would I. For a super computing cluster, the
world pretty much agrees that Unix is best and the reasons are easily
justified.
The open source community has done an *amazing* job on pretty much all
computing tasks where the user interface is very focused or minimal:
servers, embedded devices, and more. Even with things like smart phones,
where one company has taken the lead things are pretty good (even if not as
"polished" as the competition).

The desktop is a tough nut to crack. You need to get a lot right to really
do things better than the competition:

* Needs to be very crash resistant: at this point Windows, OS X, and
Linux all are.
* Needs to have a very wide range of applications to serve many, many
niches. Windows is the king here but OS X has lots of top-of-the-line
software not found on Windows. Linux really hurts here. There is some
great software for it but most of its really good software is also on
the competition (say FireFox. Thunderbird, VLC, MPlayer, etc.). When
you lack compelling applications which are not on the competition then
you will have a hard time pulling in new users.
* Needs to have a good, unified experience. Here OS X is king. It has
productivity enhancing tools and designs which are found throughout
the system. This includes:
- Proxy icons
- The Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from the title bar
(though this is still not universal)
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- Saved status indicators
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and pasting
from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into their
history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs

Windows is behind OS X here - one of the reasons why Macs get such high user
satisfaction ratings. Linux is even more behind here: most desktop Linux
systems are a mix of KDE, Gnome, and other apps that do not work well
together. With Windows you have always had some of this, and MS seems to
have gone insane with Windows 8 and is pushing to have two competing UIs
pushed together. At least there is some level of context change between the
two, but it is still based on what type program from a programmers
perspective and not a users. Really quite a mess.
Post by mach2
Microsoft has momentum going for it. All of those users are used to
using their software. The money they earn turns into marketing and they
spend about $8 billion a year in research and development. That
translates to new products, like currier, which never saw the light of
day, and other's like Surface, which isn't selling well. A lot of it
goes right back into Windows and Office, which is a huge cash cow and
keeps the corporate world happy and everyone likes happy cows.
That and tons and tons of niche software: lots of business stuff but also
things like quilting software and other home hobby niches. Nobody comes
close to Windows in these areas, though OS X does beat it in *some* niches
(say screencasting and perhaps even media editing).
Post by mach2
It's been about 20 years for Linux give or take. And in that time I have
seen SCO die. UnixWare is who knows where. Solaris is pretty much on the
way out. No cares about Sparcs anymore. MIPS? Who cares. Linux took over
the whole Unix market and is more successful on the desktop than any of
those older platforms.
And Linux *earned* this. It handles these things very well *and* is free (as
in no cost) and is open source allowing big companies to modify it for their
own needs.
Post by mach2
I welcome your opinion. My own thoughts are that if the corporate world
focused as much attention on software for Linux as they do for Windows,
then Linux would be better than par for all the reasons mentioned above.
To really compete well on the desktop, Linux needs applications *and* a way
so that individual systems can be mostly consistent (which is not to say
different distros have to be consistent with each other). Having this would
also allow for the types of system tools I list for OS X (and many others, I
am sure).
Post by mach2
I don't see Linux as deficient. I see commercial development as being
deficient. The core foundation of Linux is very good. It's important to
separate the two, a) the platform and b) the software that runs on top
of it.
When I speak of desktop Linux I am including the whole ecosystem around
this... much more than just the kernel.
Post by mach2
I often think other countries might do more or Linux than the United
States. Perhaps run with it from day one out of need more than anything
else. A poor country can begin with Linux much the way the United States
began with the Apple IIe and DOS. Who knows what those youths will do
with it. What they will create with it, and what standards they will
adopt because of it.
I think you hit on a very big topic there: standards. Right now the lack of
them on desktop Linux makes things a big challenge for getting it to grow in
popularity and usefulness for the masses. I think you are right that over
time this will change (and over time it has - compare, say, PCLOS of today
with what it was 3-4 years ago... it is like night and day). Desktop Linux
has come a long way in a short time. Really very impressive.
Post by mach2
How many American companies build PCs now? I can't think of any.
Well, soon Apple will be making its new Pro PCs in the US. But these will
not sell well... nothing like the iMacs or the main boxes from Dell or HP
and the like.
Post by mach2
So why do we think our software will always come from the likes of Apple or
Microsoft. Google was used in China. It's not unthinkable that Baidu might
gain market share in America. And for that matter, maybe the next great word
processor will something from some company we've never heard of. Maybe the
next hot cell phone will be something we've never heard of.
I'm just thinking out loud.
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.

Can you think of any?
--
"On desktops, Linux has had a hard time cracking the 1 per cent mark,
although some of the web analytics companies now put it at around 1.5 per
cent." -- Linus Torvalds
mach2
2013-07-30 17:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
On 7/29/13 11:07 PM, in article
...
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I have used Usenet off and on since the late 1980s. Some posts of mine from
<http://goo.gl/0wHM> Jul 18 1995
-----
if DOS were a combo of UNIX and Mac it would be cool. I
just wish we had something that combined the two. In theory
that is the way both UNIX and Mac are growing
-----
<http://goo.gl/EDip> Jul 19 1995
-----
But UNIX does have some advantages over the Mac... a CLI
would be a great addition to the Mac. I would say that
between Mac and UNIX you have the best operating systems
around.
-----
<http://goo.gl/vrLf> Aug 10 1995
-----
The Mac is not the end all in computer technology. Where it
fails, UNIX excels. Between the two, there is almost no task
that computers would be used for that can not be done. And
one or the other will beat the competition in almost every
area.
-----
Apple finally moved to OS X, and Linux has gained a GUI that is really very
much like what Apple had back in those days. :)
Post by mach2
When I was on usenet is was much much bigger than it is now. Not sure if
I mentioned it but slip.net was the provider I had for my PPP
connection, which offered telnet, tin, pine, etc.
I was using tin back on those days for my Usenet access... and I used pine
and telnetted a lot. Not so much these days.
Post by mach2
Back then if you had netcom.com you kind of got the basic tools like usenet as
part of the package. We were all basically sold those services and so they
were generally used services. Ask even a 20 year old tech now what usenet is
and I'd wager you get a shrug of the shoulders. It's like asking someone if
they have used a BBS. Again, they have no idea what that is.
I used my first BBSs on an old Apple IIe with a 300 baud modem where you
could see the text being drawn on the screen. Things have changed just a
little. :)
Post by mach2
When I was getting my first NetWare cert, again Usenet was helpful.
You seem pretty normal to me. I wouldn't try to change anyone's mind
though. There is a psychological thing that goes on when we decide on
something. That's your mind saying that your logic is pure and true.
Whatever you ended up with is in your mind the correct thing. If you buy
a green handa, it's because the green handa is the best car for you.
Best for the things you value the most. If it weren't, you'd not have
bought it. You don't go to the dealership, find the 3rd or 4th best car
and buy that, do you? No, of course not.
Well, I have a low end car - I would prefer a higher end one but am not
wealthy... but I get your idea. Yes: I buy and use what works best for me
given the tool itself and the cost, availability, support, etc.
Post by mach2
At the time of purchase you have reasoned what best is and justified it
in your mind. Now someone else comes around and they have a different
car and guess what. They too have decided it is best. If you have a
conversation with this person, you will both disagree. It cannot be
otherwise. The minute you no longer feel what you have is acceptable you
will find yourself wanting something else, which will be the new
justified best in your mind. And the cycle starts all over again.
If you walk into a Linux room, as a Mac user, right there you have
conflict. Nothing you can do about it.
But you seem to be open to trying multiple solutions. Again, that is what I
call "informed computing" and what I advocate for. Yes, I use a Mac as my
main system - and on it I have Parallels running multiple versions of
Windows and Linux.
Post by mach2
I use all three. I have no conflict with any operating system. The users
are another story. They disagree and will justify it in different ways.
They hate bill gates and love Linus. The google guys love Google, think
ads in your email is perfectly fine and defend targeted ads. They don't
mind being the product. I do mind being the product. I don't use
Google's GMail. I prefer to pay for email. I prefer that email is the
product, not me because I don't want ads in my in box.
My ISP moved to gMail in the backend, but at least I do not get their ads.
Still, Google collects all the email that goes through my ISP. That does
bother me some.
Post by mach2
Some people like the reality that not a lot of people understand Linux.
It makes them feel good to know something not easily obtainable.
Very true. It is their way of feeling special.
Post by mach2
A new user shows up and that new user is a threat. They want to learn and thus
make the insecure personality that much more insecure. Pretty soon they the
insecure lash out in hateful ways with a hope that the new user is discouraged
and leaves.
Or, worse yet for many in COLA, the new person *disagrees* with their shared
views. The "advocates" in COLA have very few disagreements about
technology... they are called the "herd" for a reason. Very cult-like. I
admit it: it is one of the things that keeps me here. My first degree was in
psychology and it interests me to watch them.
Post by mach2
Then the same insecure user speaks about no one else understands. Which is
actually a good thing for that individual. They like it that way and don't
want any change. I'm sure they are good people. Probably perfectly normal
around their friends. But in this environment you will have argument. They
will search the web for anything and everything that justifies their agenda
and then parade it here in your face and call you an idiot for not seeing it.
They do not even do that... they do not even try to back their claims. Look
at my recent challenge with Bilk (and others) to compare desktop Linux with
the competition. Most have gone on the offensive for my even suggesting such
a thing (and having the audacity to even *show* the competition). TomB is an
exception to that: he is not following my exact "rules", which is fine, but
he is comparing. And so far we have not fully agreed but have discussed two
points: NTFS writing (Windows wins by default here - I think we can all
agree, and then Linux next, with OS X being able to do what Linux can but
needing the user to install a driver and reboot - so it is in last place)
and looking at attachments in email (and by extension looking at file
previews in general). OS X wins that... though by how much we did not agree
on.
Post by mach2
I just disagree. So long as there is no name calling, I don't care if they
believe pigs fly. We're all irrational about something. That's what humans do.
We're not machines.
Exactly correct.
I have not read the arguments and comps so I cannot really comment on
any of it. In general I'd say I like that Unix or Linux doesn't allow
the GUI inside of ring 0, where as MacOSX and Windows both do allow for
this. The GUI on the Mac or Windows can bring down the whole system as a
result. It has direct access to the hardware and makes both platforms
inherently less stable that Unix, Linux.
This is a slightly dated look at the make-up of OS X, but the GUI is pretty
<http://images.appleinsider.com/cocoa-081027-1.gif>
Darwin sits at the core and you have all sort of graphics and media toolkits
sitting above that with the application frameworks one level higher and only
then do you get to the GUI side of things. They are split pretty well on OS
X.
Post by mach2
I just build a Linux server over the weekend. Not a big task at all. No
GUI by default, but even if there were a GUI it is a service running on
top of the OS, not welded into the fabric of the OS itself.
If you look at Microsoft's latest Server 2012 Core editions you see the
same thing now. Microsoft finally acknowledged that the GUI is a major
part of the potential security and stability threat to their server
platform. By default, core server does not have a GUI and you can add it
and remove it after the fact.
It is true that Apple makes no version of OS X without the GUI.
Post by mach2
I mention this because I have both a dual G5 and a MacMini intel Mac at
my place of business. The dual G5 lasts for months before it kernel
panics for no particular reason. I'll just hear the fan kick into ultra
high gear and walk over and see it completely in a kernel panic. Hard
reset and it's fine.
I would guess it is having overheating issues. You can get tools that will
monitor its heat and check it from time to time to see how hot it is
getting.
Post by mach2
Windows. Typically I see a very slow memory leak and it eventually gets
the better of the system and causes a reboot. It takes quite a while but
it gets there. Sometimes it is something else entirely. Like a DVD-ROM
drive stops functioning correctly. Again, reboot it and it goes away.
OS X deals with memory poorly compared to Linux and even Windows, though
Mountain Lion seems to have improved it quite a bit. The next version of OS
X is supposed to make this much better. I hope so. Also hope Apple at some
point moves to a file system where they can do block level backups (right
now if you have a VM running the whole virtual drive, generally 10s of GB,
will get backed up every hour).
Post by mach2
Windows is also essentially always in root mode and that right there
makes it much more likely to get compromised.
I wouldn't compare DOS to Unix or even call it a CLI exactly. Though
that is what we called the AmigaDOS prompt. The shell is much more than
a command line. It's access to hundreds of commands that can be easily
piped together to do amazing things.
Correct. And what I was wanting way back in 1995 (and before, really, just
cannot find any posts about it) was an OS that had the Unix-like shell
capabilities plus a Mac-like GUI. I predicted Apple and Unix would head that
way. With OS X Apple did much what I said, and Linux has done much what I
said on the "Unix" side (even though it is not a "real" UNIX).
I think it can be argued Linux does the underbelly "Unixy" stuff better
(even though OS X is a certified UNIX and Linux is not) and OS X does the
top end GUI stuff better. So their is still room for improvement for both,
but in general my predictions from 1995 have turned out to be true.
Post by mach2
To be really honest, I thought Gates was right to be scared out of his
mind when he wrote that October document. Here comes Linux. It's free.
How do you compete with that? The only way I would think to compete with
free is to be much better to justify the cost. But as you say, for a web
server, you'd use Linux. As would I. For a super computing cluster, the
world pretty much agrees that Unix is best and the reasons are easily
justified.
The open source community has done an *amazing* job on pretty much all
servers, embedded devices, and more. Even with things like smart phones,
where one company has taken the lead things are pretty good (even if not as
"polished" as the competition).
The desktop is a tough nut to crack. You need to get a lot right to really
* Needs to be very crash resistant: at this point Windows, OS X, and
Linux all are.
* Needs to have a very wide range of applications to serve many, many
niches. Windows is the king here but OS X has lots of top-of-the-line
software not found on Windows. Linux really hurts here. There is some
great software for it but most of its really good software is also on
the competition (say FireFox. Thunderbird, VLC, MPlayer, etc.). When
you lack compelling applications which are not on the competition then
you will have a hard time pulling in new users.
* Needs to have a good, unified experience. Here OS X is king. It has
productivity enhancing tools and designs which are found throughout
- Proxy icons
- The Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from the title bar
(though this is still not universal)
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- Saved status indicators
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and pasting
from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into their
history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs
Windows is behind OS X here - one of the reasons why Macs get such high user
satisfaction ratings. Linux is even more behind here: most desktop Linux
systems are a mix of KDE, Gnome, and other apps that do not work well
together. With Windows you have always had some of this, and MS seems to
have gone insane with Windows 8 and is pushing to have two competing UIs
pushed together. At least there is some level of context change between the
two, but it is still based on what type program from a programmers
perspective and not a users. Really quite a mess.
Post by mach2
Microsoft has momentum going for it. All of those users are used to
using their software. The money they earn turns into marketing and they
spend about $8 billion a year in research and development. That
translates to new products, like currier, which never saw the light of
day, and other's like Surface, which isn't selling well. A lot of it
goes right back into Windows and Office, which is a huge cash cow and
keeps the corporate world happy and everyone likes happy cows.
That and tons and tons of niche software: lots of business stuff but also
things like quilting software and other home hobby niches. Nobody comes
close to Windows in these areas, though OS X does beat it in *some* niches
(say screencasting and perhaps even media editing).
Post by mach2
It's been about 20 years for Linux give or take. And in that time I have
seen SCO die. UnixWare is who knows where. Solaris is pretty much on the
way out. No cares about Sparcs anymore. MIPS? Who cares. Linux took over
the whole Unix market and is more successful on the desktop than any of
those older platforms.
And Linux *earned* this. It handles these things very well *and* is free (as
in no cost) and is open source allowing big companies to modify it for their
own needs.
Post by mach2
I welcome your opinion. My own thoughts are that if the corporate world
focused as much attention on software for Linux as they do for Windows,
then Linux would be better than par for all the reasons mentioned above.
To really compete well on the desktop, Linux needs applications *and* a way
so that individual systems can be mostly consistent (which is not to say
different distros have to be consistent with each other). Having this would
also allow for the types of system tools I list for OS X (and many others, I
am sure).
Post by mach2
I don't see Linux as deficient. I see commercial development as being
deficient. The core foundation of Linux is very good. It's important to
separate the two, a) the platform and b) the software that runs on top
of it.
When I speak of desktop Linux I am including the whole ecosystem around
this... much more than just the kernel.
Post by mach2
I often think other countries might do more or Linux than the United
States. Perhaps run with it from day one out of need more than anything
else. A poor country can begin with Linux much the way the United States
began with the Apple IIe and DOS. Who knows what those youths will do
with it. What they will create with it, and what standards they will
adopt because of it.
I think you hit on a very big topic there: standards. Right now the lack of
them on desktop Linux makes things a big challenge for getting it to grow in
popularity and usefulness for the masses. I think you are right that over
time this will change (and over time it has - compare, say, PCLOS of today
with what it was 3-4 years ago... it is like night and day). Desktop Linux
has come a long way in a short time. Really very impressive.
Post by mach2
How many American companies build PCs now? I can't think of any.
Well, soon Apple will be making its new Pro PCs in the US. But these will
not sell well... nothing like the iMacs or the main boxes from Dell or HP
and the like.
Post by mach2
So why do we think our software will always come from the likes of Apple or
Microsoft. Google was used in China. It's not unthinkable that Baidu might
gain market share in America. And for that matter, maybe the next great word
processor will something from some company we've never heard of. Maybe the
next hot cell phone will be something we've never heard of.
I'm just thinking out loud.
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
answer there. My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate. I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.

That being said I am reminded of HyperV, which if I understand this
correctly, inserts a virtual machine at a lower than OS level such that
it is not merely an app running on the OS, which would be slower.

I prefer what Linux and Unix are doing. The GUI is separate. And yes,
you could argue that it is slower. However, when I play Nexuiz on a
modest graphics card I can get into the multi-hundred fps easily. So I
feel that at this point it doesn't matter any more. The GPUs going out
today are so fast that there is processing to spare. I get great results
even in 1080p.

The apps could look a little better though. But after a short time I
tend to forgive that and not care.

Thank you for your thoughts. All very interesting.
--
-mach2
Snit
2013-07-30 17:48:14 UTC
Permalink
On 7/30/13 10:00 AM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
Post by mach2
I have not read the arguments and comps so I cannot really comment on
any of it. In general I'd say I like that Unix or Linux doesn't allow
the GUI inside of ring 0, where as MacOSX and Windows both do allow for
this. The GUI on the Mac or Windows can bring down the whole system as a
result. It has direct access to the hardware and makes both platforms
inherently less stable that Unix, Linux.
This is a slightly dated look at the make-up of OS X, but the GUI is pretty
<http://images.appleinsider.com/cocoa-081027-1.gif>
Darwin sits at the core and you have all sort of graphics and media toolkits
sitting above that with the application frameworks one level higher and only
then do you get to the GUI side of things. They are split pretty well on OS
X.
Post by mach2
I just build a Linux server over the weekend. Not a big task at all. No
GUI by default, but even if there were a GUI it is a service running on
top of the OS, not welded into the fabric of the OS itself.
If you look at Microsoft's latest Server 2012 Core editions you see the
same thing now. Microsoft finally acknowledged that the GUI is a major
part of the potential security and stability threat to their server
platform. By default, core server does not have a GUI and you can add it
and remove it after the fact.
It is true that Apple makes no version of OS X without the GUI.
Post by mach2
I mention this because I have both a dual G5 and a MacMini intel Mac at
my place of business. The dual G5 lasts for months before it kernel
panics for no particular reason. I'll just hear the fan kick into ultra
high gear and walk over and see it completely in a kernel panic. Hard
reset and it's fine.
I would guess it is having overheating issues. You can get tools that will
monitor its heat and check it from time to time to see how hot it is
getting.
Post by mach2
Windows. Typically I see a very slow memory leak and it eventually gets
the better of the system and causes a reboot. It takes quite a while but
it gets there. Sometimes it is something else entirely. Like a DVD-ROM
drive stops functioning correctly. Again, reboot it and it goes away.
OS X deals with memory poorly compared to Linux and even Windows, though
Mountain Lion seems to have improved it quite a bit. The next version of OS
X is supposed to make this much better. I hope so. Also hope Apple at some
point moves to a file system where they can do block level backups (right
now if you have a VM running the whole virtual drive, generally 10s of GB,
will get backed up every hour).
Post by mach2
Windows is also essentially always in root mode and that right there
makes it much more likely to get compromised.
I wouldn't compare DOS to Unix or even call it a CLI exactly. Though
that is what we called the AmigaDOS prompt. The shell is much more than
a command line. It's access to hundreds of commands that can be easily
piped together to do amazing things.
Correct. And what I was wanting way back in 1995 (and before, really, just
cannot find any posts about it) was an OS that had the Unix-like shell
capabilities plus a Mac-like GUI. I predicted Apple and Unix would head that
way. With OS X Apple did much what I said, and Linux has done much what I
said on the "Unix" side (even though it is not a "real" UNIX).
I think it can be argued Linux does the underbelly "Unixy" stuff better
(even though OS X is a certified UNIX and Linux is not) and OS X does the
top end GUI stuff better. So their is still room for improvement for both,
but in general my predictions from 1995 have turned out to be true.
Post by mach2
To be really honest, I thought Gates was right to be scared out of his
mind when he wrote that October document. Here comes Linux. It's free.
How do you compete with that? The only way I would think to compete with
free is to be much better to justify the cost. But as you say, for a web
server, you'd use Linux. As would I. For a super computing cluster, the
world pretty much agrees that Unix is best and the reasons are easily
justified.
The open source community has done an *amazing* job on pretty much all
servers, embedded devices, and more. Even with things like smart phones,
where one company has taken the lead things are pretty good (even if not as
"polished" as the competition).
The desktop is a tough nut to crack. You need to get a lot right to really
* Needs to be very crash resistant: at this point Windows, OS X, and
Linux all are.
* Needs to have a very wide range of applications to serve many, many
niches. Windows is the king here but OS X has lots of top-of-the-line
software not found on Windows. Linux really hurts here. There is some
great software for it but most of its really good software is also on
the competition (say FireFox. Thunderbird, VLC, MPlayer, etc.). When
you lack compelling applications which are not on the competition then
you will have a hard time pulling in new users.
* Needs to have a good, unified experience. Here OS X is king. It has
productivity enhancing tools and designs which are found throughout
- Proxy icons
- The Media Browser
- Full screen programs integrating with virtual desktops
- PDF Services
- A system wide color selector which allows for add-ons
- A system wide font manager where you can define sets and more
- Application services
- Renaming and moving and duplicating from the title bar
(though this is still not universal)
- QuickLook (and its integration with so many programs)
- Saved status indicators
- A visual versioning system - which allows easy copying and pasting
from earlier versions
- A visual backup system that allows a novice to "dig back" into their
history
- Consistent print dialogs
- Consistent save and open dialogs
Windows is behind OS X here - one of the reasons why Macs get such high user
satisfaction ratings. Linux is even more behind here: most desktop Linux
systems are a mix of KDE, Gnome, and other apps that do not work well
together. With Windows you have always had some of this, and MS seems to
have gone insane with Windows 8 and is pushing to have two competing UIs
pushed together. At least there is some level of context change between the
two, but it is still based on what type program from a programmers
perspective and not a users. Really quite a mess.
Post by mach2
Microsoft has momentum going for it. All of those users are used to
using their software. The money they earn turns into marketing and they
spend about $8 billion a year in research and development. That
translates to new products, like currier, which never saw the light of
day, and other's like Surface, which isn't selling well. A lot of it
goes right back into Windows and Office, which is a huge cash cow and
keeps the corporate world happy and everyone likes happy cows.
That and tons and tons of niche software: lots of business stuff but also
things like quilting software and other home hobby niches. Nobody comes
close to Windows in these areas, though OS X does beat it in *some* niches
(say screencasting and perhaps even media editing).
Post by mach2
It's been about 20 years for Linux give or take. And in that time I have
seen SCO die. UnixWare is who knows where. Solaris is pretty much on the
way out. No cares about Sparcs anymore. MIPS? Who cares. Linux took over
the whole Unix market and is more successful on the desktop than any of
those older platforms.
And Linux *earned* this. It handles these things very well *and* is free (as
in no cost) and is open source allowing big companies to modify it for their
own needs.
Post by mach2
I welcome your opinion. My own thoughts are that if the corporate world
focused as much attention on software for Linux as they do for Windows,
then Linux would be better than par for all the reasons mentioned above.
To really compete well on the desktop, Linux needs applications *and* a way
so that individual systems can be mostly consistent (which is not to say
different distros have to be consistent with each other). Having this would
also allow for the types of system tools I list for OS X (and many others, I
am sure).
Post by mach2
I don't see Linux as deficient. I see commercial development as being
deficient. The core foundation of Linux is very good. It's important to
separate the two, a) the platform and b) the software that runs on top
of it.
When I speak of desktop Linux I am including the whole ecosystem around
this... much more than just the kernel.
Post by mach2
I often think other countries might do more or Linux than the United
States. Perhaps run with it from day one out of need more than anything
else. A poor country can begin with Linux much the way the United States
began with the Apple IIe and DOS. Who knows what those youths will do
with it. What they will create with it, and what standards they will
adopt because of it.
I think you hit on a very big topic there: standards. Right now the lack of
them on desktop Linux makes things a big challenge for getting it to grow in
popularity and usefulness for the masses. I think you are right that over
time this will change (and over time it has - compare, say, PCLOS of today
with what it was 3-4 years ago... it is like night and day). Desktop Linux
has come a long way in a short time. Really very impressive.
Post by mach2
How many American companies build PCs now? I can't think of any.
Well, soon Apple will be making its new Pro PCs in the US. But these will
not sell well... nothing like the iMacs or the main boxes from Dell or HP
and the like.
Post by mach2
So why do we think our software will always come from the likes of Apple or
Microsoft. Google was used in China. It's not unthinkable that Baidu might
gain market share in America. And for that matter, maybe the next great word
processor will something from some company we've never heard of. Maybe the
next hot cell phone will be something we've never heard of.
I'm just thinking out loud.
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
answer there.
The image I showed was not from Apple's site. This one is:
<http://bit.ly/12YmXCB>. Same basic idea but with more detail (and, I think,
updated for Mountain Lion). For more context see the page it is on:
<http://bit.ly/1caPJbZ>.
Post by mach2
My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate.
No correction needed - I agree. :)
Post by mach2
I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.
The fact you cannot split them yourself is based on much of the OS not being
open source... I do not think it shows the layers are not there. I am not a
developer but have no reason to think Apple is lying about this. There might
be details in how things are connected which do not show up on such a
high-level image, of course. I have seen other images which show some
technologies crossing boundaries of these boxes, so I would not say this
high level image is a complete picture.
Post by mach2
That being said I am reminded of HyperV, which if I understand this
correctly, inserts a virtual machine at a lower than OS level such that
it is not merely an app running on the OS, which would be slower.
I prefer what Linux and Unix are doing. The GUI is separate. And yes,
you could argue that it is slower. However, when I play Nexuiz on a
modest graphics card I can get into the multi-hundred fps easily. So I
feel that at this point it doesn't matter any more. The GPUs going out
today are so fast that there is processing to spare. I get great results
even in 1080p.
Keep in mind OS X is a certified UNIX. So OS X does do things the way UNIX
does things... though it also has a lot going on "above" those layers. Not
sure how the VMs work on it, in terms of what layers they go down to. I have
had a kernel panic which I believe was tied to an older version of Parallels
on an older version of OS X... been a few years and I cannot recall all
details. The logs mentioned Parallels though. Again, do not recall the
details and even if I did I am not a developer so many of them would be
meaningless to me. :)

I use OS X a lot and have, maybe, one kernel panic a year... not including
when I had a machine which had a dying motherboard (or, really, some other
problem - Apple sent two techs out to my house and could not correct the
problem, so they sent me an updated machine with 2x the memory and 2x the
hard drive space... and, of course, all the other goodies that come with
getting a newer machine - more and faster cores, GPU, etc.). Bummer my Mac
died but Apple treated me very well.
Post by mach2
The apps could look a little better though. But after a short time I
tend to forgive that and not care.
The look of the apps I do not think is *that* big of a deal (say in terms of
the window chrome)... but where desktop Linux suffers is functionality /
consistency between programs in terms of dialogs, hot keys, etc. This is why
KDE was made. A bit lengthy, but here are some details on it:

From the KDE Project Announcement:
<http://kde.org/documentation/posting.txt>
-----
Unix popularity grows thanks to the free variants, mostly
Linux. But still a consistant, nice looking free
desktop-environment is missing.
...
IMHO a GUI should offer a complete, graphical environment. It
should allow a users to do his everyday tasks with it, like
starting applications, reading mail, configuring his desktop,
editing some files, delete some files, look at some pictures,
etc. All parts must fit together and work together.
...
The idea is to create a GUI for an ENDUSER. Somebody who
wants to browse the web with Linux, write some letters and
play some nice games.

I really believed that is even yet possible with Linux until
I configured my girlfriends Computer. Well, I didn't notice
anymore that I work with lots of different kind of menues,
scrollbars and textwidgets.
-----

Something I find of great interest in that post: he admits he did not see
what most of the COLA "advocates" claim to not see (and I think many Linux
user miss... unless you have a background in UI design or the like)... that
he was working with a very inconsistent environment that was, at least to
his girlfriend, detrimental (research has since shown that such
inconsistencies affect advanced users as much or more than novice users).

And he continues, speaking of the his goal in starting KDE:
-----
So one of the major goals is to provide a modern and common
look&feel for all the applications. And this is exactly the
reason, why this project is different from elder attempts.
-----

Wikipedia has more on it: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE#Origins>

But even now there is no common system (or distro) that meets this "major
goal", over sixteen years after he started the project. Current ones come a
lot closer than the ones from just a few years ago - and most of the ones
that do use KDE primarily, so it is not as though the project has been a
failure, it simply has not been as successful as it could be (and, I think,
will be).

One might theorize that in sixteen years goals can change and that the lack
of reaching this goal was merely an evolution of purpose (look at how much
the goals of Linux have changed!). Maybe the KDE project changed direction
and no longer sees those things listed by Ettrich as a goal. But this is
not so; looking at the *current* reasons the "KDE Software Compilation"
exists we find four listed "benefits" of what they hope to achieve. The
first: <http://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/softwarecompilation.php>
-----
1) A consistent look and feel between applications
-----

And the third:
-----
A host of useful KDE applications that are designed with
integration in mind
-----

Sixteen years later, two of the four hoped for "benefits" are tied to the
very thing noted as the initial goal... and I have noted for years is
important (since long before I knew this was the goal of KDE).

But it is not just the KDE team that sees the value in this. I have shown
many others, both in and out of the open source world, get this. This
includes: Developers of Gnome and Firefox and OpenOffice and LibreOffice.
Each has comments about these things on their sites. Mark Shuttleworth, Jim
Zemlin, Tim Berners-Lee and other key people in the open source movement
have also made comments showing they understand the importance of such
things.

UI experts such as Richard Chimera, Jakob Nielsen, Rick Oppedisano, Henry P.
Ledgard, Jeff Johnson, Matthew Ward, Marshall C. Yovits, and many more focus
on these things as being key components to productivity, efficiency, and
error reduction. Their views are backed by a lot of peer reviewed studies by
themselves and Carole A George, Cheul Rhee, John W Satzinger, Ben
Shneiderman, C. Marlin Brown, W. A. Kellogg, Rubenstein and Hirsh, Smith,
Mosier, and more.

Add to that, standards bodies have accepted this, including what is found in
ISO 9241, HFS 600, and ISO 13407.

Given all this I think it is clear these things are of value! But desktop
Linux still has a long way to go to be able to handle such things well. It
has improved ... and will continue to. But for now it is still pretty far
behind the competition (especially OS X, which itself is far from perfect).
Post by mach2
Thank you for your thoughts. All very interesting.
As are yours. Thank you.
--
"There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but that's one major
reason why I don't call what I do 'free software' any more. I don't want to
be associated with the people for whom it's about exclusion and hatred."
-- Linus Torvalds
Hadron
2013-07-30 18:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
Then why are you so sure it provides a benefit? There are disadvantages
too. It is well covered hundreds of times over.
Post by mach2
answer there. My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate. I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.
You can run OSx/MacOS without the GUI: As you can Windows.
Post by mach2
That being said I am reminded of HyperV, which if I understand this
correctly, inserts a virtual machine at a lower than OS level such that
it is not merely an app running on the OS, which would be slower.
I prefer what Linux and Unix are doing. The GUI is separate. And yes,
you could argue that it is slower. However, when I play Nexuiz on a
Nexuiz based on a 15 year old engine?
Post by mach2
modest graphics card I can get into the multi-hundred fps easily. So I
feel that at this point it doesn't matter any more. The GPUs going out
today are so fast that there is processing to spare. I get great results
even in 1080p.
Because nexuiz is rubbish compared to modern games.
Post by mach2
The apps could look a little better though. But after a short time I
tend to forgive that and not care.
Thank you for your thoughts. All very interesting.
My thoughts are that you need to correct your thinking about ring 0 and
also this misconception of ring 0 being the same something being
seperated : there is no link. Something can be "seperate" but still
allowed to run at ring 0. A subtle difference.
--
A certain COLA "advocate" faking his user-agent in order to pretend to be a Linux
user: User-Agent: Outlook 5.5 (WinNT 5.0), User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0
(Linux), Message-ID: <wPGdnd3NnOM0ACfdRVn-***@comcast.com>
mach2
2013-07-30 19:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
Then why are you so sure it provides a benefit? There are disadvantages
too. It is well covered hundreds of times over.
Post by mach2
answer there. My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate. I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.
You can run OSx/MacOS without the GUI: As you can Windows.
In single user mode? Can you install an update like that? It is Unix so
I'd imagine you could do a lot with it. My point is more that I can in
Linux, quit the GUI, reboot the GUI, remove it and exchange it for
something else. I can uninstall it and reinstall it. It is a separate
entity running on top of the operating system. MacOSX and Windows are
not that same way.

I think, correct me if I am wrong, you are thinking of single user mode
where you can boot into a non-GUI environment for OSX and in the case of
Windows, where you interrupt the boot cycle and use the shell with or
without networking.

But until Windows Server 2012 you couldn't actually do all the server
configuration without having the GUI, right? You had limited ability to
fix a broken system without the GUI.

With Linux server, I don't need the GUI at all. I can install, remove,
check on a package detail, configure the network, configure Samba, NFS,
DNS, add users, and do all the things that can be done.

Am I wrong here?
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
That being said I am reminded of HyperV, which if I understand this
correctly, inserts a virtual machine at a lower than OS level such that
it is not merely an app running on the OS, which would be slower.
I prefer what Linux and Unix are doing. The GUI is separate. And yes,
you could argue that it is slower. However, when I play Nexuiz on a
Nexuiz based on a 15 year old engine?
Post by mach2
modest graphics card I can get into the multi-hundred fps easily. So I
feel that at this point it doesn't matter any more. The GPUs going out
today are so fast that there is processing to spare. I get great results
even in 1080p.
Because nexuiz is rubbish compared to modern games.
It's also decent and free, and works on Linux, Mac or PC. Those are
pretty solid benefits.
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
The apps could look a little better though. But after a short time I
tend to forgive that and not care.
Thank you for your thoughts. All very interesting.
My thoughts are that you need to correct your thinking about ring 0 and
also this misconception of ring 0 being the same something being
seperated : there is no link. Something can be "seperate" but still
allowed to run at ring 0. A subtle difference.
Thank you. I am really not clear on this at all. Would love to learn.
--
-mach2
Ezekiel
2013-07-30 19:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
I think, correct me if I am wrong, you are thinking of single user mode
where you can boot into a non-GUI environment for OSX and in the case of
Windows, where you interrupt the boot cycle and use the shell with or
without networking.
But until Windows Server 2012 you couldn't actually do all the server
configuration without having the GUI, right? You had limited ability to
fix a broken system without the GUI.
Limited depending on what the problem is. Either from the CLI or via telnet
on Windows you could add users, remove users, configure file and print
sharing, change permissions, start and stop services, configure network
interfaces, modify the dns configuration, etc.

Most people are used to doing all of this via the GUI but there's also CLI
tools for just about everything.
Post by mach2
With Linux server, I don't need the GUI at all. I can install, remove,
check on a package detail, configure the network, configure Samba, NFS,
DNS, add users, and do all the things that can be done.
Am I wrong here?
Not wrong. Just under estimating what CLI tools exist on Windows. Generally
the CLI facilities on Windows aren't as complete as what you'll find on Unix
but what's there will let a competent admin/IT person do ninety-something
percent of the common tasks they'll usually need to do.
--
Post by mach2
Problem with Chromebooks in the enterprise - when IBM, HP, eBay,
Citi Bank, etc writes an email, internal document or spreadsheet
they don't want Google to see each and every word they write?
Didn't think you had the brains that God gave a cockroach, fsckwit.

How about encrypting things that they don't want others to see?

turdv "thinks" that encryption will magically provide privacy on the docs
and spreadsheets you edit and spell-check online.
Jan 21, 2013
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
chrisv
2013-07-30 19:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
You can run OSx/MacOS without the GUI: As you can Windows.
The Wintroll "Hadron" tirelessly supports his beloved Micro$oft Corp.
Anything Linux can do, Windows can also do.

When Linux' superior support for virtual desktops was being discussed,
"Hadron" claimed that "Virtual desktops work just fine on Windows
too."

Honestly. You could not make this stuff up!
--
"Video is still a major issue with Linux desktops and the freetards
scare off developers." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
Snit
2013-07-30 20:01:54 UTC
Permalink
On 7/30/13 12:22 PM, in article
Post by mach2
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
Then why are you so sure it provides a benefit? There are disadvantages
too. It is well covered hundreds of times over.
Post by mach2
answer there. My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate. I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.
You can run OSx/MacOS without the GUI: As you can Windows.
In single user mode? Can you install an update like that? It is Unix so
I'd imagine you could do a lot with it. My point is more that I can in
Linux, quit the GUI, reboot the GUI, remove it and exchange it for
something else.
Well, you can quit applications, even those running from the root user. And
you *can* load other GUIs if you want. Never done it myself but you *could*.
Post by mach2
I can uninstall it and reinstall it.
You can install other GUIs on OS X. There are multiple X implementations,
for example. Not sure why one would want to do this on OS X... Linux seems
the better option if you have this need or desire. :)
Post by mach2
It is a separate entity running on top of the operating system. MacOSX and
Windows are not that same way.
Well, they are: but the norm is to have the "whole system" running. There
are pros and cons to this. For the uncommon case where you do not want the
standard OS X GUI, for example, it likely would take some work to get it to
work. On the other hand, OS X developers know what they are developing for -
on Linux they do not so they end up for many things having to develop for
the lowest common denominator.

In some cases these program are then ported to OS X and Windows... where
they are not done well at all for the systems. GIMP on OS X is a great
example of this - even though the program has improved a lot it is is a
nasty OS X program. From a recent post of mine about GIMP on OS X:
-----
I really have a lot more... for example, when using it on OS X why
does it not let me use the OS X color picker? For that matter, why
does it not even use the OS X save and open dialogs and printing is
even worse: when I click to print it opens a separate program in the
background which I have to click on (and, of course, it looks
nothing like the standard OS X print dialog).

This means when I open and save documents I do not have access to
the items have placed on my sidebar. This means with color I do not
have access to my swatches from other programs nor to any of the
default color selection options I have in almost every other program
not any of the add-ons I have added to the color selector. This
means I do not have access to my printer defaults. Heck, for most of
the hotkeys it uses the OS X standard of Command+whatever but for
printing it uses Control+P. When I select to "Hide" it (which shows
the correct hot key but it does not work), it often hides and then
pops back into view, though behind other programs (this is just
*wrong* and absurd... I have never seen any other program act so
oddly on OS X). I can go on and on - no system services... no access
to the Media Browser... on and on.
-----

Really quite a mess.

A bit off topic, but on the other hand, I also recently found out that OS
X's Quick Look views GIMP (.XCF) files just fine, as well as OpenOffice /
LinreOffice (.ODT) files just fine. Here is a video showing this:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/MultipleViewMethods.mp4>. Also handles a
lot more... think I showed you some of the videos I recently made in
reference to Quick Look from other conversations.

If you look closely you can see the .XCF file sometimes slows things down
though... such as at 1:02 where some of the image preview are not drawn.
Weird: you would think they would be cached. If nothing else a lower quality
version would show as it made a higher quality one. Could also be because I
had a video and it was building the Quick Look info for that, but you can
also play the video right from the Finder icon so I am not sure about that.
Anyway, the technology there is not instant and perfect but it is pretty
darn good. :)
Post by mach2
I think, correct me if I am wrong, you are thinking of single user mode
where you can boot into a non-GUI environment for OSX and in the case of
Windows, where you interrupt the boot cycle and use the shell with or
without networking.
My first thought was single user mode for OS X, but you can also quite the
GUI if you want or even prevent it from booting at all.

For more info on this, see:
<http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20020501090420147>

Or: <http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/h/348>

Or you can just download Darwin and run that. :)
Post by mach2
But until Windows Server 2012 you couldn't actually do all the server
configuration without having the GUI, right? You had limited ability to
fix a broken system without the GUI.
With Linux server, I don't need the GUI at all. I can install, remove,
check on a package detail, configure the network, configure Samba, NFS,
DNS, add users, and do all the things that can be done.
Am I wrong here?
I think in details, yes: but the general idea that if all you want is a Unix
command / shell that Linux is an excellent choice and likely better than the
other two alternatives in most cases is exactly right. Sure, you *can* do
this on other OSs, but with Linux it is going to be easier and likely you
can find more people online who have done it and know how to.

Then again, Linus Torvalds is not one of them:
-----
But I have never, ever even run a Linux server and I don't
even want to; it's not what I'm interested in. I'm more of
a desktop guy.
-----

...
--
"In fact, the main goal of Linux might be called usability... the most
important thing is that it works well and people ... want to use it."
-- Linus Torvalds
Snit
2013-07-30 19:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
Post by Snit
I think your thoughts are good. And I think you are right that these
innovations *can* come on Linux, esp. in other parts of the world. For now
much of the desktop Linux software is not very innovative. OpenOffice /
LibreOffice work to copy MS Office. GIMP is made to try to copy Photoshop.
How much real innovation do we see on desktop Linux? Repositories... virtual
desktops... those are two I can think of. Not much else comes to mind.
Can you think of any?
Regarding that OSX is not totally GUI embedded into RING 0. I'm not
really a dev so I would happily yield to any dev that can provide the
Then why are you so sure it provides a benefit? There are disadvantages
too. It is well covered hundreds of times over.
Before we even get to that, keep in mind that on OS X the GUI is not in
"Ring 0" (the kernel): <http://bit.ly/12YmXCB>. This is also true for Window
and Linux. Linux does have the drivers as a part of the kernel, so its Ring
0 is, I believe, actually bigger than the other OSs.

Never studies the Ring security model much, though, so I could be wrong
about the above.
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
answer there. My thought is that I can remove the packages for GNOME and
Linux still works. I can add the packages for KDE or XFCE. That to me
proves (corrections are welcomed) that Linux and the GUI are absolutely
separate. I cannot do this with OSX, and so I believe (again,
corrections are welcomed) that this says the opposite.
You can run OSx/MacOS without the GUI: As you can Windows.
Hmmm, in my response I said you could not... but I was not thinking of
running OS X in Single User Mode, which is the common way of getting to the
OS without loading the GUI. Easy to do: just boot holding the "S". I have
done this once in the last 10 years just to see what it looks like. I do not
think I have done it more than that.

...
Post by Hadron
Post by mach2
Thank you for your thoughts. All very interesting.
My thoughts are that you need to correct your thinking about ring 0 and
also this misconception of ring 0 being the same something being
seperated : there is no link. Something can be "seperate" but still
allowed to run at ring 0. A subtle difference.
I admit I am certainly no expert on this side of computing.
--
Proof Brad Wiggins AKA cc AKA Bill Bateman is clueless about his Xerox
claims: <http://bit.ly/1aG0yQX>
chrisv
2013-07-30 15:01:10 UTC
Permalink
"Snit" feedings deleted, unread.
Snit
2013-07-30 16:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
"Snit" feedings deleted, unread.
What are you so afraid of?
--
loop do
puts "I hate Stallman"
end
-- Soup du Jour (though he was trying to speak for another)
GreyCloud
2013-07-29 19:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
Typical of Jed. He can't read. He can't write. And he can't comprehend.
flatfish+++
2013-07-29 22:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by GreyCloud
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by mach2
I wouldn't be interested in that at all. I'd rather see Open Source GIMP
get much better.
So you can run it on the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface RT that you
said you own?
Buh-bye, wintroll.
"I own both the Surface RT and Pro.
[deletia]
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
I honestly don't get all the hate out there for the device. I'm actually
waiting for a Haswell version 256 GB SSD. I'll buy it all over again when
that releases."
This isn't an all or nothing world Soupe du Jour. I have virtually every
...then why are you atrying to actlike some sort of FSF purist?
[deletia]
Even if you are some sort of Free Software purist, there is absolutely
ZERO reason to engage in some sort of mindless brand fixation over GIMP.
That's the kind of nonsense that should be reserved for Windows and MacOS.
Typical of Jed. He can't read. He can't write. And he can't comprehend.
Rhymes, riddles and double speak from that clown Jed.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Hadron
2013-07-27 15:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ezekiel
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
Hee-hee. <giggle> "Oh Mr. President, you're such a genius."
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Most everything you mention (office suite, browsers, email app, TrueCrypt,
etc) isn't Linux specific. ( - "I am reminded how great Linux is.") These
are cross-platform apps that are just as happy running on Windows or OSX or
another platform.
And why they are the better apps. More Windows resources to code and
test them.
--
A certain COLA "advocate" faking his user-agent in order to pretend to be a Linux
user: User-Agent: Outlook 5.5 (WinNT 5.0), User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0
(Linux), Message-ID: <wPGdnd3NnOM0ACfdRVn-***@comcast.com>
7
2013-07-25 17:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales recently
exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them
change some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is large
enough for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by any one
player. I want people to have real choices available to them. I want
devices to be inter-operable so people can move from one to another
without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
If you want truly interchangeable OS agnostic tablets
and phones, Linux has it nearly covered.
May be 1 more year before the market is cracked wide open.
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more if
Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell evolved
faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there.
I use Ubuntu 12.04 with classic installed and desktop translucent cube.

I try to avoid making demands on Linux because you get so much
and you can work with what you got and if its not working
up to expectations then learn a little
bit about configuring, programming and scripting to go the extra mile rather
than perch somewhere distant and make demands.
Post by mach2
But often the
software is pre 1.0 or lacking compared to the commercial stuff. Believe
me, I'm not happy paying Adobe $49 a month for life to use their
software. There are however lithographic services to use for large scale
print and teams of others to work with that require us all to use the
same software. And so there is the sense that the $49 per month is an
acceptable fee to pay in exchange for the tools used to drive your
profession.
I like the ideal of Linux. I'd like to see it grow as a desktop
standard. It's already running the stock exchange, the banks, the
internet and so on. As a back end it's already there. And in mind at
least, I think there is a generational consideration at work here. I
think that as the next generation of kids mature to adulthood they are
more likely to adopt Linux than either Windows or MacOSX.
Apple and Microsoft were simply the start and so perhaps we don't really
see the life cycle at work just yet. The whole concept of personal
computers is still at its infancy.
That is 100% accurate. There are so many gadgets that are only
just beginning to be realized.

For example the parallella that is just shipping
http://www.parallella.org/
It uses Zinq CPU that is ARM with FPGA that allows
a full arm to be configured with FPGA to make
extremely complex hardware.
Like these guys have linked it to a 16 core CPU and
offer the entire board and software for $99.
They also offer 64 core version for not much more.

The same Zinq has move on to make digital scope
and signal generator at a fraction of the normal price
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/652945597/red-pitaya-open-instruments-for-everyone
Post by mach2
Every time I have to activate an app, or deactivate an app, or register
or worry about how many times I have installed something, I am reminded
how great Linux is. I can install it on an many machines as I want. I
can switch distros at will. The email app is free. The OpenVPN is free.
My KeePass manager is free and open. TrueCrypt is donation. The office
suite is free / donation. The browsers are open. We can see the source
code. We can define the machine. It's whatever we want it to be.
Compiles on virtually anything from ARM to RISC and runs on anything
from a raspberry pie for $30 to a mainframe or super computer valued in
the multi-millions. It's pretty awesome.
Cola Zealot
2013-07-25 20:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales
recently exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them
change some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is
large enough for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by
any one player. I want people to have real choices available to
them. I want devices to be inter-operable so people can move from
one to another without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
If you want truly interchangeable OS agnostic tablets
and phones, Linux has it nearly covered.
May be 1 more year before the market is cracked wide open.
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more
if Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell
evolved faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there.
I use Ubuntu 12.04
Wow!!!, the compatible version with Moonlight of Miguel de Icaza I see.
http://blog.mbirgin.com/?c=page&ID=326&t=howtoinstallmoonlightsilverlightonubuntu
Gotcha, fraud!
--
Fraud < Loading Image... > 7:
Does anyone *format RAM* ?

Peter Kohlmann:
Are you *a Snit* ?

Fraud < http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/Fraud7.gif > 7:
abuse complaints to: ***@eternal-september.org
Are you an internet troll *impersonating* Peter Köhlmann again?

Peter Kohlmann:
"Idiot"

< lol >
This is so funny, an "Idiot" calling another "Idiot": "Idiot"
flatfish+++
2013-07-25 23:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cola Zealot
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by 7
Post by mach2
Post by Soupe du Jour
Post by chrisv
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Come on, now. I just read the other day that iPhone sales
recently exceeded expectations.
Personally, I want to see Apple stick around. I'd like to see them
change some of the ways they do things, but I think the market is
large enough for both Apple and MS to share in.
I just want these markets to be _shared_ and not monopolized by
any one player. I want people to have real choices available to
them. I want devices to be inter-operable so people can move from
one to another without being locked in.
Maybe some day...
Couldn't agree more.
With failed MBAs in charge running the show, all you are entitled
is a steaming pile of brown stuff and old rope for some fresh
green dollars.
If you want truly interchangeable OS agnostic tablets
and phones, Linux has it nearly covered.
May be 1 more year before the market is cracked wide open.
I use Mint 15 about 50% of the time myself. I would use it much more
if Adobe supported it with Creative Suite or if GIMP and Inkwell
evolved faster than they do. The foundation of Linux is there.
I use Ubuntu 12.04
Wow!!!, the compatible version with Moonlight of Miguel de Icaza I see.
http://blog.mbirgin.com/?c=page&ID=326&t=howtoinstallmoonlightsilverlightonubuntu
Gotcha, fraud!
Good catch!

But of course 7 = Joseph Michael makes sure to protect his own ideas
as well (and I don't blame him) so it figures.

They are hypocrites these Linux "advocates".
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
flatfish+++
2013-07-25 12:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Never heard of Appile.
--
flatfish+++
PLEASE VISIT OUR HALL OF LINUX IDIOTS:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
GreyCloud
2013-07-26 22:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Never heard of Appile.
Must be one of his startup companies that is flopping.
-hh
2013-07-25 12:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Its all down - about 30 million phones...
Where "down" is in the land of where 31.2 million is less than 26 million in the year-ago quarter.



and may be
Post by 7
some 10 million tablets
where "10" is actually 14.6 million, although it was off from 17M YoY.
Post by 7
...and margins down some 20%.
Gross margin was 36.9% vs 42.8% YoY, which while it was off, the claim of -20% was wrong by a mere 31% margin ;-)


The info is all in Apple's earnings report:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/07/23Apple-Reports-Third-Quarter-Results.html
Post by 7
Thats about 3 weeks of Google Android sales.
Sales without profits are unsustainable...and "dumping" is illegal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)
Post by 7
The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.
Infinitely superior to any appile offering.
One can only hope since it doesn't do much good to be 'superior' if people don't use your product, and in just the past month, the iPad's usage share in the USA has gained yet another 2%, from 82.4% in May to 84.3% in June.



-hh
J. Bird Song
2013-07-25 13:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Its all down - about 30 million phones...
Where "down" is in the land of where 31.2 million is less than 26
million in the year-ago quarter.
Where "D-O-W-N" is 22% less profit. You didn't see that!! Cherry
picking at it's finest!

Amusing how you shills hang your hats on the iPhone. Excellent free
entertainment.


http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/blog/morning-edition/2013/07/apple-profit-falls-22-percent-in.html?s=image_gallery

Sales of the company's iPads dropped 14 percent from a year earlier
and demand for Macs fell 7 percent, contributing to a second
consecutive quarter of declines for Apple's overall revenue and
profit. Profit declined 22 percent,
-hh
2013-07-25 15:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Bird Song
Post by -hh
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
Its all down - about 30 million phones...
Where "down" is in the land of where 31.2 million is
less than 26 million in the year-ago quarter.
Where "D-O-W-N" is 22% less profit.
Yes, overall profits were down. Too bad 7 never mentioned it in his little trolling rant: he would have then had gotten one claim correct! ;-)
Post by J. Bird Song
You didn't see that!!
You mean "didn't see" something that didn't exist...




-hh
J. Bird Song
2013-07-25 17:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Bird Song
Post by -hh
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
Its all down - about 30 million phones...
Where "down" is in the land of where 31.2 million is
less than 26 million in the year-ago quarter.
"Strong sales of Apple’s cheaper iPads and older iPhones are putting
the squeeze on the margins. Apple did not disclose how many of each
phone or tablet model it sold"
Post by J. Bird Song
Where "D-O-W-N" is 22% less profit.
Yes, overall profits were down. Too bad 7 never mentioned it in his
little trolling rant: he would have then had gotten one claim
correct! ;-)
Ahhhhh - now it's his fault you were so ignorant.
Post by J. Bird Song
You didn't see that!!
You mean "didn't see" something that didn't exist...
It existed, you just don't want to acknowledge it.
-hh
2013-07-25 17:56:54 UTC
Permalink
"-hh" wrote in message
[...]
Post by -hh
Post by -hh
Where "down" is in the land of where 31.2 million is
less than 26 million in the year-ago quarter.
"Strong sales of Apple’s cheaper iPads and older iPhones are putting
the squeeze on the margins. Apple did not disclose how many of each
phone or tablet model it sold"
So?
Post by -hh
Post by -hh
Where "D-O-W-N" is 22% less profit.
Yes, overall profits were down. Too bad 7 never mentioned it in his
little trolling rant: he would have then had gotten one claim
correct! ;-)
Ahhhhh - now it's his fault you were so ignorant.
Ahhhhh ... yet another unsubtantiated claim.
Post by -hh
Post by -hh
You didn't see that!!
You mean "didn't see" something that didn't exist...
It existed, you just don't want to acknowledge it.
False, as I acknowledged once it was actually mentioned.


FYI, Mac sales were down slightly too, but since this hasn't been mentioned in this thread by "J Bird", it means that by his own logic, he is denying that Mac sales were down. So they must be up! ;-P


-hh
unknown
2013-07-25 14:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Its all down - about 30 million phones and may be
some 10 million tablets and margins down some 20%.
Thats about 3 weeks of Google Android sales.
By the end of the year individual Chinese and other Far East
makers could be exceeding those sales numbers.
The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.
Infinitely superior to any appile offering.
Its a sign that all those suppliers, factories and techies that
failed MBAs in appil have sued through their mega patent
trolling operations have have ditched appile
and gone with Android on Linux as their preferred platform.
All appile products are reduced to second hand
products built with out of date technologies.
Now appile is reduced to selling religion to
their faithful. Oooo!
The faithfools make do with foggy video instead of
crisp OLED video of Samsung S2, S3 et phones that
are a lot quicker and longer lasting with batteries.
Blame appile's failed MBAs who did all the patent
trolling money can buy and failed to
spend time making products that people want.
A lesson for all companies that hire failed
MBAs that do the failed MBA thing at the top like pointing
and screaming, tax evasion, burning bridges
to factories and patent trolling, when
they should be getting down
on their hands and knees and do some work
like making product.
Who or what is an Appile?

Your incredible skills at looking into the future astound me.
Post by 7
The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.
Infinitely superior to any appile offering.
Really?…..how do you know untill you have it in your hands and have tested it?
Post by 7
The faithfools make do with foggy video instead of
crisp OLED video of Samsung S2, S3 et phones that
are a lot quicker and longer lasting with batteries.
Prove it
Post by 7
Its a sign that all those suppliers, factories and techies that
failed MBAs in appil have sued through their mega patent
trolling operations have have ditched appile
and gone with Android on Linux as their preferred platform
Do you have an english translation please?
J. Bird Song
2013-07-25 14:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by 7
Appile loosing all sales and margins
------------------------------------
Its all down - about 30 million phones and may be
some 10 million tablets and margins down some 20%.
Thats about 3 weeks of Google Android sales.
By the end of the year individual Chinese and other Far East
makers could be exceeding those sales numbers.
The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.
Infinitely superior to any appile offering.
Its a sign that all those suppliers, factories and techies that
failed MBAs in appil have sued through their mega patent
trolling operations have have ditched appile
and gone with Android on Linux as their preferred platform.
All appile products are reduced to second hand
products built with out of date technologies.
Now appile is reduced to selling religion to
their faithful. Oooo!
The faithfools make do with foggy video instead of
crisp OLED video of Samsung S2, S3 et phones that
are a lot quicker and longer lasting with batteries.
Blame appile's failed MBAs who did all the patent
trolling money can buy and failed to
spend time making products that people want.
A lesson for all companies that hire failed
MBAs that do the failed MBA thing at the top like pointing
and screaming, tax evasion, burning bridges
to factories and patent trolling, when
they should be getting down
on their hands and knees and do some work
like making product.
Who or what is an Appile?
Your incredible skills at looking into the future astound me.
The next google 7" nexus is available for pre-order
with resolution of 1920 x 1200 for $230.
Infinitely superior to any appile offering.
Really?…..how do you know untill you have it in your hands and have tested it?
The faithfools make do with foggy video instead of
crisp OLED video of Samsung S2, S3 et phones that
are a lot quicker and longer lasting with batteries.
Prove it
Its a sign that all those suppliers, factories and techies that
failed MBAs in appil have sued through their mega patent
trolling operations have have ditched appile
and gone with Android on Linux as their preferred platform
Do you have an english translation please?
SLUUURP! And gawee the BuffoonFish, can't pass another bait by,
without sucking it down, hook, line and sinker. ROTFLMAO!!!
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