Discussion:
Should Apple offer a Sub-$500 computer?
(too old to reply)
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 02:46:13 UTC
Permalink
A lot of folks think they should.

But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?

http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht

Have at it cheapo boys!
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Snit
2004-12-09 02:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
you forgot the "ml"

http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.html
--
"He's guilty of committing the crime, not of breaking the law."
- CSMA Troll playing silly semantic games
Snit
2004-12-09 03:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.html
Have at it cheapo boys!
----- Start Quotes -----

The store interfaces are awful, the models are stupid, and the deceit and
attempted trickery are so obviously transparent that you want to puke.
Someone else could probably go to these same sites and try to configure
these same models and come out with different dollar amounts (which I think
says something in itself about these companies), but like I said, I wasn't
doing this to come up with specific prices.

I just wanted to see what these other name-brand companies were doing that
allowed them to offer $499 entry-level computer models, while Apple starts
at $799. And now I know: none of them are really selling sub-$500 computer
models; they're just pretending to, in order to get you in the door. Their
actual base models are, essentially, priced in the same range as the
base-model eMac.

----- End Quotes -----

Very much like what I have been saying for a long, long time.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 03:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.

All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...

"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"

Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-09 03:25:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
Snit
2004-12-09 03:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
Compare PDF's to see if any are forgeries. :)
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 04:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
Compare PDF's to see if any are forgeries. :)
Naah, that's just a hobby of mine, and only when it pertains to you, Snit.
Snit
2004-12-09 04:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
Compare PDF's to see if any are forgeries. :)
Naah, that's just a hobby of mine, and only when it pertains to you, Snit.
See... I was right when I said you could not let the whole PDF thing go.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 06:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
Compare PDF's to see if any are forgeries. :)
Naah, that's just a hobby of mine, and only when it pertains to you, Snit.
See... I was right when I said you could not let the whole PDF thing go.
Umm, look again you delusional retard, you're the one who brought it up.
Steve Carroll
2004-12-09 14:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.
ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
Compare PDF's to see if any are forgeries. :)
Naah, that's just a hobby of mine, and only when it pertains to you, Snit.
See... I was right when I said you could not let the whole PDF thing go.
Umm, look again you delusional retard, you're the one who brought it up.
No he isn't, Snit brought it up... Snit had nothing to do with bringing it up.
It was definitely Snit that brought it up. (Yes, he has multiple personalities;)
We need Mike Dee to categorize them for us, he's good at this.
--
Nothing does not equal nothing.

Steve C
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 03:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
I'm a 'jack of all trades' guy at a small tool/mold/die making outfit.
Though I specialize in 3D design/engineering/manufacturing. I'm also the
IT guy here. The Dells I've mentioned are replacing computers that
are up to 7 years old :) Mostly just for 2D, and light 3D work, DNC
server, etc..

I give advice on what deals are out there to my *VERY* large family(I'm
the youngest of 7 siblings). So, I'm always looking for deals.

We also picked up a Dell 1600N network laser/fax/scanner/copier for $199
last week :) DAMN nice unit for the $.

The New Dell 3000s aren't bad units for the $. The integrated graphics is
MUCH faster than they used to be. Just for shits and grins, figuring it
would fail, tonight, I loaded up a 3D model, consisting of approximately
5000 surfaces(most are fairly organic, swoopy stuff), and shaded it in
Surfcam 2001. To my surprise, I could rapidly rotate the model while
shaded, and it wouldn't drop a single polygon.

Loading Image... That's the core half to the
model in question.
Clarance H. Balwebber
2004-12-09 05:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
I'm a 'jack of all trades' guy at a small tool/mold/die making outfit.
Though I specialize in 3D design/engineering/manufacturing. I'm also the
IT guy here. The Dells I've mentioned are replacing computers that
are up to 7 years old :) Mostly just for 2D, and light 3D work, DNC
server, etc..
And you're using $349 computers for those tasks?
Post by Steve Mackay
I give advice on what deals are out there to my *VERY* large family(I'm
the youngest of 7 siblings). So, I'm always looking for deals.
I guess they must use up computers very fast then,or is it that the
cheapo's don't last very long?
Post by Steve Mackay
We also picked up a Dell 1600N network laser/fax/scanner/copier for $199
last week :) DAMN nice unit for the $.
used?
Post by Steve Mackay
The New Dell 3000s aren't bad units for the $. The integrated graphics is
MUCH faster than they used to be. Just for shits and grins, figuring it
would fail, tonight, I loaded up a 3D model, consisting of approximately
5000 surfaces(most are fairly organic, swoopy stuff), and shaded it in
Surfcam 2001. To my surprise, I could rapidly rotate the model while
shaded, and it wouldn't drop a single polygon.
http://www.mackay.us/vx/1836_EJ_MODEL.JPG That's the core half to the
model in question.
Ok.....whatever you say.
--
Clarance
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 06:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clarance H. Balwebber
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:10:58 GMT, Steve Mackay
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
You're always talking about buying PCs, Steve. What do you do with all
of them?
I'm a 'jack of all trades' guy at a small tool/mold/die making outfit.
Though I specialize in 3D design/engineering/manufacturing. I'm also the
IT guy here. The Dells I've mentioned are replacing computers that
are up to 7 years old :) Mostly just for 2D, and light 3D work, DNC
server, etc..
And you're using $349 computers for those tasks?
For simple 3D and 2D, yup. They're working out quite well. For the higher
end 3D stuff, Last year I bought a couple of Dell 400SC servers(it's the
same thing as their midrange workstations, just with a low end ATI video
card, small 40 gig HD, and only 128 meg of ram, but with the high end, at
the time Intel 875 chipset, 6 USB 2.0 ports, gigabit ethernet, sata,
etc...)for $329, added 2 gig of PC3200 DDR, an ATI FireGL video card,
voila, instant workstation for under a grand. I however missed out on the
20.1" Dell LCD monitors for $569 last week. Bummer!
Post by Clarance H. Balwebber
Post by Steve Mackay
I give advice on what deals are out there to my *VERY* large family(I'm
the youngest of 7 siblings). So, I'm always looking for deals.
I guess they must use up computers very fast then,or is it that the
cheapo's don't last very long?
No, not at all. It's just that I do suggest deals for a lot of
friends/family members.
Post by Clarance H. Balwebber
Post by Steve Mackay
We also picked up a Dell 1600N network laser/fax/scanner/copier for $199
last week :) DAMN nice unit for the $.
used?
Brand spankin' new, and not a refurb.
Post by Clarance H. Balwebber
Post by Steve Mackay
The New Dell 3000s aren't bad units for the $. The integrated graphics is
MUCH faster than they used to be. Just for shits and grins, figuring it
would fail, tonight, I loaded up a 3D model, consisting of approximately
5000 surfaces(most are fairly organic, swoopy stuff), and shaded it in
Surfcam 2001. To my surprise, I could rapidly rotate the model while
shaded, and it wouldn't drop a single polygon.
http://www.mackay.us/vx/1836_EJ_MODEL.JPG That's the core half to the
model in question.
Ok.....whatever you say.
I'd show the whole part model, but most customers aren't real keen on
showing unreleased products.
Snit
2004-12-09 03:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :)
Yes, please. Would love to.
Post by Steve Mackay
I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 05:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 06:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
Nasht0n
2004-12-09 17:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.

Nicolas
Steve Mackay
2004-12-09 18:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
Dual? SGI Indy runing IRIX 6.5, Sun Ultra5 runing Solaris 10, An HP P4 2.7
runing Fedora, 2 Macs runing OSX, a dual boot Toshiba laptop dual booting
Free BSD and XP.

So that's:
Irix
Solaris
Linux
OSX
BSD
Windows

So that's a bit more than DUAL platform :)
granted, I don't really use the SGI & Sun boxen much anymore.
Post by Nasht0n
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.
Nicolas
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 19:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
Dual? SGI Indy runing IRIX 6.5, Sun Ultra5 runing Solaris 10, An HP P4 2.7
runing Fedora, 2 Macs runing OSX, a dual boot Toshiba laptop dual booting
Free BSD and XP.
Irix
Solaris
Linux
OSX
BSD
Windows
So that's a bit more than DUAL platform :)
granted, I don't really use the SGI & Sun boxen much anymore.
Post by Nasht0n
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.
Nicolas
Steve, nasty was talking Win-Mac dual platform since that's what he is.
I don't blame him for only looking inside his own sphere of influence,
many do that. But he doesn't get the big picture.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Nasht0n
2004-12-09 22:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
Dual? SGI Indy runing IRIX 6.5, Sun Ultra5 runing Solaris 10, An HP P4 2.7
runing Fedora, 2 Macs runing OSX, a dual boot Toshiba laptop dual booting
Free BSD and XP.
Irix
Solaris
Linux
OSX
BSD
Windows
So that's a bit more than DUAL platform :)
granted, I don't really use the SGI & Sun boxen much anymore.
Post by Nasht0n
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.
Nicolas
Steve, nasty was talking Win-Mac dual platform since that's what he is.
I don't blame him for only looking inside his own sphere of influence,
many do that. But he doesn't get the big picture.
You demonstrated your perception of the big picture while trying to
troubleshoot a PC and got caught in your own lies and hyperbole, Jim.

Nicolas
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 23:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.
ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
Dual? SGI Indy runing IRIX 6.5, Sun Ultra5 runing Solaris 10, An HP P4 2.7
runing Fedora, 2 Macs runing OSX, a dual boot Toshiba laptop dual booting
Free BSD and XP.
Irix
Solaris
Linux
OSX
BSD
Windows
So that's a bit more than DUAL platform :)
granted, I don't really use the SGI & Sun boxen much anymore.
Post by Nasht0n
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.
Nicolas
Steve, nasty was talking Win-Mac dual platform since that's what he is.
I don't blame him for only looking inside his own sphere of influence,
many do that. But he doesn't get the big picture.
You demonstrated your perception of the big picture while trying to
troubleshoot a PC and got caught in your own lies and hyperbole, Jim.
Nicolas
This commentary coming to you courtesy of NicolASS.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Mike
2004-12-10 00:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
This commentary coming to you courtesy of NicolASS.
Why do you quote 100 lines of junk for a 1 line, throw away reply?
You don't need to quote the ENTIRE THREAD in every reply!

Mike
Jim Lee Jr.
2004-12-10 00:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Jim Polaski
This commentary coming to you courtesy of NicolASS.
Why do you quote 100 lines of junk for a 1 line, throw away reply?
You don't need to quote the ENTIRE THREAD in every reply!
Mike
Bitching again, Mikey? What happened, did you get a blue screen of death
again? Or did you spend 12 hours cleaning malware off your PeeCee? Using
Windoze is a real bitch, isn't it?
Mike
2004-12-10 02:46:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:51:38 GMT, "Jim Lee Jr."
Post by Jim Lee Jr.
Bitching again, Mikey? What happened, did you get a blue screen of death
again? Or did you spend 12 hours cleaning malware off your PeeCee? Using
Windoze is a real bitch, isn't it?
No Jimmie, no Windows problems here. Had any grey screens of death
lately? Spinning rainbow disk of death? Using Mac Oooze X is real
bitch, isn't it?

I was just offering some constructive criticism to someone who clearly
doesn't understand quoting etiquette.

But thanks for your concern!

Mike
Jim Polaski
2004-12-10 05:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Jim Polaski
This commentary coming to you courtesy of NicolASS.
Why do you quote 100 lines of junk for a 1 line, throw away reply?
You don't need to quote the ENTIRE THREAD in every reply!
Mike
Sorry, I shoulda snipped!
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 19:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasht0n
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
It's hilarious how Polaski has a talent to turn any discussion into a
chorus of either personal attacks, comments about worth or status or
just outright lies.
It's more than obvious you don't have a clue here nasty. This wasn't any
kind of personal attack. It WAS, however, asking Steve to go the the
author and try and take things to the next level. Steve thinks Palmer is
a bad shopper, so perhaps it's time to clarify...and that to the benefit
of all.

Nice stab at showing you don't get the big picture.
Post by Nasht0n
I've noticed this especially when the people he respond to are dual
platform users that he tries to denigrate and give the impression that
they effectively don't know what they're talking about.
In my case, i have a good BS detector and don't fall for the hype
surrounding Macs even though, just as Steve Mackay, I utterly enjoy my
Macs when they are working they way they were intended to work.
Nicolas
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 19:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
Why should you assume you'd get some delusional response? You have no
proof of that either.

Lets go one better. Tell Palmer of the post here and ask him to look at
the responses. Then ask him to update the column with the resulting
findings that should be posted here and sent to him.

After all, the proof is in the pudding, so lets make some pudding!
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-10 19:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
No problem. Want to see the orders for the 4 $349 3GHZ Dells I bought in
the past month? :) I could have gotten them with a 17" Analog LCD display
for $149 more.
All came with 512 meg of ram, CDRW drive, XP home, etc...
"So the question left to ask is not why Apple doesn't sell a sub-$500
computer, because none of the other name-brands really do, either. The
question is, should Apple do like the competition does, and pretend that
they do?"
Ehh, not everyone knows how to shop for deals. Pretending that Dell
doesn't sell a sub $500 machine, is well, not true...
Steve, why don't you take it up with the author, Bill Palmer? I'm sure
he'd like the input since you think he could be a better shopper.
No problem, I'll do that. But I'm likely to get some pretty delusional
responses, and disbelief. Don't get me wrong, I love my macs. Prefer them
to PCs for daily use. They are just too expensive in most cases.
Why should you assume you'd get some delusional response? You have no
proof of that either.
He sounds much like a Zealot IMHO. Much like the excuses I'm seeing in
this thread.
Post by Jim Polaski
Lets go one better. Tell Palmer of the post here and ask him to look at
the responses. Then ask him to update the column with the resulting
findings that should be posted here and sent to him.
I did that, and haven't seen a response from him<shrug>
Post by Jim Polaski
After all, the proof is in the pudding, so lets make some pudding!
I tried, but no one came and ate it :)
George Graves
2004-12-09 04:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
NO.
--
George Graves
------------------
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French
one behind me." Gen. G.S. Patton
Lisa Horton
2004-12-09 05:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
A lot of folks think they should.
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Have at it cheapo boys!
He's a maroon. He says that because HP can't sell a $500 computer that
he feels is equal to a $800 Mac, HP can't sell a $500 computer. This
isn't effective Mac advocacy, it's fodder for Windows advocates to laugh
at.

His inability to purchase an available computer aside...

I think that it might be a good thing if Apple did offer something
cheaper, like an Emac without the monitor. Not because I think that it
would be a compelling product, although it would indeed be compelling to
many WalMart type consumers who look at price above all. No, I think it
would be good because it would compete head to head with any other entry
level computer on price, with no excuses. It's a mindshare thing, a
public opinion thing. And as we've recently seen, many people's opinion
is not based on facts, or what's good for them, but on emotional issues.

Lisa
Ringo Langly
2004-12-09 12:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi JP,

One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.

I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.

Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.

Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.

Take care, and thanks for the thread...

Ringo
Jim Polaski
2004-12-09 19:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".

Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.

Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.

Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.

The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.

So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Lisa Horton
2004-12-09 19:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.

In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.

I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.

Lisa
Jim Polaski
2004-12-10 09:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do while
expecting that he will get nothing in return!"
Nash*ton
2004-12-10 15:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
Can it, Jim. As Lisa said, it's lying, outright and simple.
Fact: You can't get a Mac under 500 $, *new* with a recent CPU.

Even Apple admits that it's not interested in competing in that price
point. When will the mac zealots catch on?

Nicolas
Jim Polaski
2004-12-10 18:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
Can it, Jim. As Lisa said, it's lying, outright and simple.
Fact: You can't get a Mac under 500 $, *new* with a recent CPU.
Even Apple admits that it's not interested in competing in that price
point. When will the mac zealots catch on?
Nicolas
I can't get an eMac for <$500 but somehow that's different than my not
being able to actually get the PC for <$500...great reasoning nasty.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Nash*ton
2004-12-11 01:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
Can it, Jim. As Lisa said, it's lying, outright and simple.
Fact: You can't get a Mac under 500 $, *new* with a recent CPU.
Even Apple admits that it's not interested in competing in that price
point. When will the mac zealots catch on?
Nicolas
I can't get an eMac for <$500 but somehow that's different than my not
being able to actually get the PC for <$500...great reasoning nasty.
Are you lobotomized, or what?
I can get a recent PC for 300 US$ with a brand spanking new CPU and a
decent HD, ethernet and cdrom and PCI slots.
WHERE can I get this at Apple.com? WHERE is their bare-bones section or
under 500 $ Mac?
Will you ever stop wanking off on Usenet and get *grounded* fer **rist's
sake!

Nicolas
Lisa Horton
2004-12-11 02:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
Can it, Jim. As Lisa said, it's lying, outright and simple.
Fact: You can't get a Mac under 500 $, *new* with a recent CPU.
Even Apple admits that it's not interested in competing in that price
point. When will the mac zealots catch on?
Nicolas
I can't get an eMac for <$500 but somehow that's different than my not
being able to actually get the PC for <$500...great reasoning nasty.
Are you lobotomized, or what?
I can get a recent PC for 300 US$ with a brand spanking new CPU and a
decent HD, ethernet and cdrom and PCI slots.
WHERE can I get this at Apple.com? WHERE is their bare-bones section or
under 500 $ Mac?
Will you ever stop wanking off on Usenet and get *grounded* fer **rist's
sake!
Calling any of the sub $500 PCs "decent" is, IMHO, being quite generous
:) Usable perhaps...

Lisa
StormDrain
2004-12-11 06:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Nash*ton
Are you lobotomized, or what?
I can get a recent PC for 300 US$ with a brand spanking new CPU and a
decent HD, ethernet and cdrom and PCI slots.
WHERE can I get this at Apple.com? WHERE is their bare-bones section or
under 500 $ Mac?
Will you ever stop wanking off on Usenet and get *grounded* fer **rist's
sake!
Calling any of the sub $500 PCs "decent" is, IMHO, being quite generous
:) Usable perhaps...
Lisa
No kidding, I picked up a cheepie in Circuit City and shook it, the
thing rattled. The Sony looked like a good well made computer but
unfortunately, it was _still_ a windows machine. :(
--
SD
"...merely a preponderance of evidence."
Jim Polaski
2004-12-12 20:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
Can it, Jim. As Lisa said, it's lying, outright and simple.
Fact: You can't get a Mac under 500 $, *new* with a recent CPU.
Even Apple admits that it's not interested in competing in that price
point. When will the mac zealots catch on?
Nicolas
I can't get an eMac for <$500 but somehow that's different than my not
being able to actually get the PC for <$500...great reasoning nasty.
Are you lobotomized, or what?
I can get a recent PC for 300 US$ with a brand spanking new CPU and a
decent HD, ethernet and cdrom and PCI slots.
WHERE can I get this at Apple.com? WHERE is their bare-bones section or
under 500 $ Mac?
Will you ever stop wanking off on Usenet and get *grounded* fer **rist's
sake!
Nicolas
The short answer is that I can't get an eMac for that $300. However
your "decent" PC is a piece of garbage, with shared memory, a crappy
monitor if there is any and so one.

One must note that all you also do is allege you can buy one,showing no
source so that one can read some specs and see how crappy it really is.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Lisa Horton
2004-12-10 18:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Lisa Horton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing,
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me), and I can see them saving $150+ off the box if they did
this even. There are things i think Apple could definately do to
increase their market share, but Jobs doesn't want to do this because
his market has always been rather higher then what the average PC user
is.
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores. Unless you live in a larger area you
generally don't have access to an Apple to play with or test. Walk
into Best Buy, Circuit City, or anyplace you won't see any Apples.
CompUSA does carry them, but the CompUSA in my town closed down
recently -- so now there's zero Mac shops unless you drive almost 90
miles. It's not that people don't like Apples or that they're too
expensive -- it's that most have NEVER SEEN one.
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
Could Apple sell a cheaper, headless Mac and make enough to support what
they currenly do at the present profit margin? Perhaps, and maybe not.
If they sold a $499 headless iMac it would eat some of the sales in the
current iMac so volume would have to make up for that as well.
Additionally, Apple has had a historic problem meeting demand. If they
had a cheap, headless iMac, could they meet demand if that demand were
*huge*? That's a question that only has a difficult answer.
Typically, when huge demand hits a product a company has two options.
First, Increase production capacity or Second, raise prices to bring
demand inline with production capacity.
The second choice is an immediate solution(though many would say not a
good one) but the first, increasing production capacity is difficult and
expensive since it often, if not usually, requires building new
facilities for that production capacity. Since Apple as well as others
largely have production overseas, those builders don't just have an idle
several hundred thousand square feet of idle space, fully stocked with
the equipment to build hardware, ready to be activated. They have to
build it too, so the problem is the same.
So the question of why doesn't Apple build a sub-$500 box does not have
a simple answer even though as this article suggests, that the PC makers
don't really have a sub-$500 box either. Think Bait and Switch.
Bait and switch is more applicable to the article than the PC's. He
even says that there were $500 boxes available, but that they were no
longer $500 boxes when upgraded to a point where he felt them
competitive with a low end Mac.
In other words, the author says that because $500 PCs, when upgraded, no
longer cost $500, that means that you can't buy $500 PC's. That
comparison cheating of the baldest sort. Actually, it's lying.
I'll say it again, Lying is NOT effective Mac advocacy, something the
author might think about.
Lisa
Regardless, it does seem that the $500 PC does not compare to what the
emac is out of the box and to some point, you can't buy the $500 PC you
think you can.I'm not so sure it's lying....in the truest sense.
I don't think that the $500 PC makers claim that their computers are
equal to the emac. But you can buy a $500 PC any day of the week,
although one will usually have to do some sort of rebate to get that
price. Heck, this time of year, you can sometimes hit $400, although
none of these low end computers are ones that I would want.

Lisa
Ringo Langly
2004-12-13 15:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do. However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division, and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,

I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.

I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.

And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore. They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539. E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
Steve Mackay
2004-12-17 19:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
Snit
2004-12-17 19:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.

In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars that
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced "recommended" system
is pretty far from the $500 mark.

Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Sandman
2004-12-17 20:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars that
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced "recommended" system
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=
dim24min&s=bsd>

$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-17 21:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars that
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced "recommended" system
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&o
c= dim24min&s=bsd>
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
E-Machines does have a sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50
mail-in rebate), but this is a box I'd hate to use. Celeron
processor, video uses shared memory, and that $399 has no monitor. So
are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer you
link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the price to $449...
and for that you get no speakers, Word Perfect, *no* virus protection (so
you need to take time to get a free one or pay for it), no writable media
(CD or floppy), No modem, integrated graphic, etc.

So, yes, Dell does offer a sub $500 machine... and Apple does not.



--
I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.
Steve Mackay
2004-12-17 22:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars that
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced "recommended" system
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&o
c= dim24min&s=bsd>
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
E-Machines does have a sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50
mail-in rebate), but this is a box I'd hate to use. Celeron
processor, video uses shared memory, and that $399 has no monitor. So
are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer you
link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the price to $449...
and for that you get no speakers, Word Perfect, *no* virus protection (so
you need to take time to get a free one or pay for it), no writable media
(CD or floppy), No modem, integrated graphic, etc.
So, yes, Dell does offer a sub $500 machine... and Apple does not.
Or I could get a Dell 4700 with a 17" LCD(analog), P4 3GHZ(800MHZ FSB
version), 256 meg of ram, 48X CD drive, 40GB Sata etc...

Now, this is not the low end solution, but comes with basic parts, like
the normal CD drive and integrated video. But it does have things you
can't get on even a high end mac, such as one 1 PCIe x16 slot and one PCIe
x1 slot.

This is for $499 after rebate, and free shipping.

For $699 you could get their top of the line "consumer" box with a 3.2GHZ
P4(800MHZ FSB), 512 meg of ram, CDRW, 17" LCD(analog), gigabit ethernet,
PCIe X16 Radeon 300. Nice box for the $ all for the same price as the low
end eMac.

Now this whole thread was based on the fact that the author of the article
was saying people were whining about Apple not having a headless "cheap"
box, around $500. If that's the case, why was he trying to configure PCs
with monitors, and then trying to say there is no PC for $500 or less?
That's just plainly not true.

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/outrageous_desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

Like I said, I love my mac. I just don't like the prices Apple charges.
Snit
2004-12-17 23:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars that
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced "recommended" system
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en
&o
c= dim24min&s=bsd>
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
E-Machines does have a sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50
mail-in rebate), but this is a box I'd hate to use. Celeron
processor, video uses shared memory, and that $399 has no monitor. So
are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer you
link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the price to $449...
and for that you get no speakers, Word Perfect, *no* virus protection (so
you need to take time to get a free one or pay for it), no writable media
(CD or floppy), No modem, integrated graphic, etc.
So, yes, Dell does offer a sub $500 machine... and Apple does not.
Or I could get a Dell 4700 with a 17" LCD(analog), P4 3GHZ(800MHZ FSB
version), 256 meg of ram, 48X CD drive, 40GB Sata etc...
Now, this is not the low end solution, but comes with basic parts, like
the normal CD drive and integrated video. But it does have things you
can't get on even a high end mac, such as one 1 PCIe x16 slot and one PCIe
x1 slot.
This is for $499 after rebate, and free shipping.
For $699 you could get their top of the line "consumer" box with a 3.2GHZ
P4(800MHZ FSB), 512 meg of ram, CDRW, 17" LCD(analog), gigabit ethernet,
PCIe X16 Radeon 300. Nice box for the $ all for the same price as the low
end eMac.
Now this whole thread was based on the fact that the author of the article
was saying people were whining about Apple not having a headless "cheap"
box, around $500. If that's the case, why was he trying to configure PCs
with monitors, and then trying to say there is no PC for $500 or less?
That's just plainly not true.
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/outrageous_desktops?c=u
s&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Like I said, I love my mac. I just don't like the prices Apple charges.
Just about every review anyone can find has Apple pricing their computers
competitively.

http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/prices

Apple does not serve the low end, and they certainly do not have a
comparable machine for every machine you can get with Windows, but what they
offer is generally priced quite fairly.

If you have some comparisons to add to my list - that either support or deny
my claim - please let me know.
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
Sandman
2004-12-18 09:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer you
link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the price to $449...
Read what I wrote, Michael
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-18 13:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer you
link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the price to $449...
Read what I wrote, Michael
Read what I wrote before you snipped it. Oh, and then read the page you
quote... where did you get the $100 rebate from?



--
I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.
Sandman
2004-12-19 11:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249.
Add a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to
$349.
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer
you link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the
price to $449...
Read what I wrote, Michael
Read what I wrote before you snipped it.
Irrelevant, it was based on faulty information.
Post by Snit
Oh, and then read the page
you quote... where did you get the $100 rebate from?
From Dell, of course.

<http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/promo.aspx/q4wk8_system_savings?c=us&cs=
04&l=en&s=bsd>
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-19 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249.
Add a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to
$349.
So for a full system you would need to add a monitor to the computer
you link to... which if you assume a 17 inch monitor brings the
price to $449...
Read what I wrote, Michael
Read what I wrote before you snipped it.
Irrelevant, it was based on faulty information.
Post by Snit
Oh, and then read the page
you quote... where did you get the $100 rebate from?
From Dell, of course.
<http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/promo.aspx/q4wk8_system_savings?c=us&c
s= 04&l=en&s=bsd>
Well, how funny... if you had not dishonestly snipped the original link:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/outrageous_desktops?c
=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

or: http://snipurl.com/4waj

You would have gotten:

Save $165 on select Dimension 3000 P4 desktops through Dell Small
Business.

Dell's sales practices are miserable.
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
Sandman
2004-12-19 18:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Oh, and then read the page
you quote... where did you get the $100 rebate from?
From Dell, of course.
<http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/promo.aspx/q4wk8_system_savings?c=us
&c
s= 04&l=en&s=bsd>
Well, how funny...
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-19 19:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Oh, and then read the page
you quote... where did you get the $100 rebate from?
From Dell, of course.
<http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/promo.aspx/q4wk8_system_savings?c=us
&c
s= 04&l=en&s=bsd>
Well, how funny...
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content... though I suppose
all you want to do is troll. The sad thing is you will try to blame me for
doing what you clearly are doing. I pointed out how the Dell site did not
support your claim - *if* you used the link in question... and you snipped
it to hide your lie.

It is a shame.
--
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
- Anatole France
Sandman
2004-12-20 06:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Well, how funny...
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content...
I wish you would leave so csma could be a better place.
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-20 15:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Well, how funny...
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content...
I wish you would leave so csma could be a better place.
I can see where you would like me to stop pointing out your trolling...
--
Look, this is silly. It's not an argument, it's an armor plated walrus with
walnut paneling and an all leather interior.
Sandman
2004-12-21 07:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ringo Langly
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content...
I wish you would leave so csma could be a better place.
I can see
Congratulations.
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-21 07:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Ringo Langly
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content...
I wish you would leave so csma could be a better place.
I can see
Congratulations.
Your dishonest snipping is just not even creative any more... if it ever
was. Why do you insist on using this method of trolling?
--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/bh6q
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
Sandman
2004-12-21 07:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Sandman
Post by Ringo Langly
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
I do wish you would stop dishonestly snipping content...
I wish you would leave so csma could be a better place.
I can see
Congratulations.
Your dishonest snipping is just not even creative any more.
It was never meant to be. It's my way to stay away from the Snit Circus which
you constantly try to gear up. I have no interest in that and as soon as you go
into Desperate Name-Calling Troll Mode, I just snip it away and pretend that
you're actually an intelligent and reasonable person.

As I've said before, there is no reason to have any form of discussion with
you, since you always bring it down to your level. Well, I grew tired of that
long ago, and all I do now is point out your misconceptions, lies or FUD and
then snip away your insults, trollings and other stupid things.
--
Sandman[.net]
Edwin
2004-12-19 20:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99
dollars that
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that.
So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=
Post by Sandman
dim24min&s=bsd>
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add a 17"
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Snit
2004-12-19 20:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal at
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99
dollars that
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that.
So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&o
c=
Post by Sandman
dim24min&s=bsd>
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add
a 17"
Post by Sandman
monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Except he was not honest. The discussion was about one link on Dell's
site... and he then ran to another.

Had he just stuck with the original link, he could have gotten a bigger
discount. I detailed this in another post.
--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/bh6q
Feel free to ask for the recipe.
Sandman
2004-12-20 06:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edwin
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal at Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars
that Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W30
0&l=en&o cdim24min&s=bsd
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add
a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had for MUCH
less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually a fountain of
rebates and deals.

The prices in Sweden for Dell are normally even better - if you don't count the
VAT (which any private person can't disregard, but it compares the prices
better to yours).
--
Sandman[.net]
Steve Mackay
2004-12-20 12:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Edwin
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal at Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars
that Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W30
0&l=en&o cdim24min&s=bsd
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add
a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had for MUCH
less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually a fountain of
rebates and deals.
NO WAY! Not according to snit, they are the same price as Macs according
to snit, and his "sources" LOL!
Snit
2004-12-20 15:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Sandman
Post by Edwin
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal at Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars
that Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W30
0&l=en&o cdim24min&s=bsd
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add
a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had for MUCH
less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually a fountain of
rebates and deals.
NO WAY! Not according to snit, they are the same price as Macs according
to snit, and his "sources" LOL!
The Internet is not my private source... as you imply. Silly troll.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Edwin
2004-12-20 16:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
In article
Post by Edwin
Post by Sandman
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Ringo Langly
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal at Dell for $500.
Depends on your definition of deal.
In any case, as of right now, just looked at Dell.com and the best
"recommended solution" was $509 *after* rebate.. add the $99 dollars
that Dell generally charges for S/H, and their lowest priced
"recommended" system is pretty far from the $500 mark.
Sure, you can piece together half a computer for less than that. So?
<http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W30
Post by Snit
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Edwin
Post by Sandman
0&l=en&o cdim24min&s=bsd
$349 before Mail-in rebate of $100, which brings it down to $249. Add
a 17" monitor from that page for $100 and you're back up to $349.
I have misjudged you, Jonas. You're not a troll like Snit. I
apologize for saying so, and I thank you for the honesty you've shown
in this thread.
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had for MUCH
less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually a fountain of
rebates and deals.
NO WAY! Not according to snit, they are the same price as Macs according
to snit, and his "sources" LOL!
The Internet is not my private source... as you imply.
Steve made no such implication.
Post by Snit
Silly troll.
Yes you are.
Sandman
2004-12-21 07:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Sandman
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had
for MUCH less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually
a fountain of rebates and deals.
NO WAY! Not according to snit, they are the same price as Macs
according to snit, and his "sources" LOL!
Michael is delusional in many ways. This is merely one of them. :)
--
Sandman[.net]
Snit
2004-12-21 07:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandman
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Sandman
Ehm, thanks - I suppose. I've always been aware that PCs can be had
for MUCH less money than Macs, and that Dell in particular is usually
a fountain of rebates and deals.
NO WAY! Not according to snit, they are the same price as Macs
according to snit, and his "sources" LOL!
Michael is delusional in many ways. This is merely one of them. :)
How is it "delusional" top accept the facts as presented by almost every
comparison site that has been presented in csma?

http://myweb.cableone.net/snit/csma/prices

If you have other comparison sites to share, by all means do so.

My guess: you will not be able to refute my claims on this using anything
other than the biased comparisons of CSMA folks.
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Jim Polaski
2004-12-18 00:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-18 02:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?

The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
Jim Polaski
2004-12-18 03:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing? Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
ed
2004-12-18 03:45:04 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager
computer...with things like shared memory and a average monitor if
that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing? Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared.
fast has little to do w/ the notion it's shared, but the two main drawbacks
of shared memory are speed, and the fact that less sytem ram is available.
given how cheap ram is these days, the main reason you avoid shared memory
is graphics speed. if graphics speed is not a concern, there's nothing
wrong w/ shared memory.
It's sorta like trying to be in
two places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
no, it's not really like that at all.
Steve Mackay
2004-12-18 04:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing?
No, never said I did. But it is quite fine for every day use.
Post by Jim Polaski
Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
It doesn't work? Really? So you have experience with the new integrated
video on the Intel chipsets?

Lets see, I can take a model with 3000+ surfaces, and high polygon count,
shade it, rotate it, etc... It works quite well.

I know at times you can be a zealot, but why be delusional at the
same time?
Jim Polaski
2004-12-18 07:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer.
I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing?
No, never said I did. But it is quite fine for every day use.
Post by Jim Polaski
Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
It doesn't work? Really? So you have experience with the new integrated
video on the Intel chipsets?
Lets see, I can take a model with 3000+ surfaces, and high polygon count,
shade it, rotate it, etc... It works quite well.
I know at times you can be a zealot, but why be delusional at the
same time?
I didn't say it didn't work. I'm saying it doens't work as well as
having video on a card.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do while
expecting that he will get nothing in return!"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-18 18:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer.
I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing?
No, never said I did. But it is quite fine for every day use.
Post by Jim Polaski
Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
It doesn't work? Really? So you have experience with the new integrated
video on the Intel chipsets?
Lets see, I can take a model with 3000+ surfaces, and high polygon count,
shade it, rotate it, etc... It works quite well.
I know at times you can be a zealot, but why be delusional at the
same time?
I didn't say it didn't work.
Sure ya did :)
"and we know that doesn't work."
Post by Jim Polaski
I'm saying it doens't work as well as
having video on a card.
No it doesn't work as well as a dedicated video card. But with the fast
processor in these systems, it does work pretty well. Especially for the
price. You can buy those same computers today for $359, and unlike the
eMac, you can puy a PCI video card if you like.

I'm most likely going to buy another workstation today, if I can find that
darn company credit card.

Dell 8400(their top of the line consumer box), 3.2GHZ P4, 512 meg of ram,
CDRW, 17" LCD, Nvidia GeForce 6800, 160 gig Sata for $1039. Add 2 gigs of
400MHZ DDR2 ram for $350. Voila, instant high end cad workstation for
under $1400. Less than a single 1.8GHZ G5, and a lot better performance.
Price a single G5 with the GeForce 6800(unfortunately only AGP, not PCIe),
and a 160 gig HD, you come up with $1999, add 2 gigs of ram(not from
Apple) for $340, you have $2339. Almost a grand more than the dell. Okay,
the Dell doesn't have a DVD burner, so add $60 to the price of the Dell.
But the Dell does include a 17" LCD. Analog, but still better than a CRT
for doing cad work IMHO. So even taking advantage of some deals online,
you can get an analog 17" LCD for around $230, than brings the single G5
up to $2539, vs the Dell's $1449(with DVD burner). I sure could buy lots
of software for that extra $1099 :)

I honestly do prefer the Macs to PCs, and have tried to steer friends and
family members towards a Mac. But they just don't compete on price. Most
of the time, they get sticker shock, and then go to a PC.
Jim Polaski
2004-12-18 20:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
In article
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most
basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the
computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay
for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like
the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right.
Apple
is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They
have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development,
prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer.
I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe
$500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll
have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by
5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly
suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal
at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend
not
to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but
this
is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing?
No, never said I did. But it is quite fine for every day use.
Post by Jim Polaski
Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
It doesn't work? Really? So you have experience with the new integrated
video on the Intel chipsets?
Lets see, I can take a model with 3000+ surfaces, and high polygon count,
shade it, rotate it, etc... It works quite well.
I know at times you can be a zealot, but why be delusional at the
same time?
I didn't say it didn't work.
Sure ya did :)
"and we know that doesn't work."
Post by Jim Polaski
I'm saying it doens't work as well as
having video on a card.
No it doesn't work as well as a dedicated video card. But with the fast
processor in these systems, it does work pretty well. Especially for the
price. You can buy those same computers today for $359, and unlike the
eMac, you can puy a PCI video card if you like.
I'm most likely going to buy another workstation today, if I can find that
darn company credit card.
Dell 8400(their top of the line consumer box), 3.2GHZ P4, 512 meg of ram,
CDRW, 17" LCD, Nvidia GeForce 6800, 160 gig Sata for $1039. Add 2 gigs of
400MHZ DDR2 ram for $350. Voila, instant high end cad workstation for
under $1400. Less than a single 1.8GHZ G5, and a lot better performance.
Price a single G5 with the GeForce 6800(unfortunately only AGP, not PCIe),
and a 160 gig HD, you come up with $1999, add 2 gigs of ram(not from
Apple) for $340, you have $2339. Almost a grand more than the dell. Okay,
the Dell doesn't have a DVD burner, so add $60 to the price of the Dell.
But the Dell does include a 17" LCD. Analog, but still better than a CRT
for doing cad work IMHO. So even taking advantage of some deals online,
you can get an analog 17" LCD for around $230, than brings the single G5
up to $2539, vs the Dell's $1449(with DVD burner). I sure could buy lots
of software for that extra $1099 :)
I honestly do prefer the Macs to PCs, and have tried to steer friends and
family members towards a Mac. But they just don't compete on price. Most
of the time, they get sticker shock, and then go to a PC.
The problem is that all they do is compare raw price with no look at how
the hardware really compares and what they get for the money.

You might think the $399 PC is cheaper and it is in "raw dollars" but
when you consider the software and that you also don't have the
maintenance that is currently the hallmark of Windows, you win.

How much is your time worth?
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do while
expecting that he will get nothing in return!"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-18 20:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
In article
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most
basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the
computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay
for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like
the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make
hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software
division,
and
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right.
Apple
is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They
have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development,
prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf
parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC
manufactorer.
I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe
$500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll
have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by
5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new
users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly
suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being
in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even
Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a
deal
at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend
not
to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but
this
is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared
memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
The 512 meg, CD burner, 3.0GHZ 533MHZ FSB is meager?
The shared memory, umm, I hate to break this to ya. It's now pretty much
as fast than the Radeon 9200 in the eMac. Like I've said
before, I was surprised that it WAS that fast, being integrated video.
So you think that Integrated Video is a good thing?
No, never said I did. But it is quite fine for every day use.
Post by Jim Polaski
Fast has little to
do with the notion that it's shared. It's sorta like trying to be in two
places at once, and we know that doesn't work.
It doesn't work? Really? So you have experience with the new integrated
video on the Intel chipsets?
Lets see, I can take a model with 3000+ surfaces, and high polygon count,
shade it, rotate it, etc... It works quite well.
I know at times you can be a zealot, but why be delusional at the
same time?
I didn't say it didn't work.
Sure ya did :)
"and we know that doesn't work."
Post by Jim Polaski
I'm saying it doens't work as well as
having video on a card.
No it doesn't work as well as a dedicated video card. But with the fast
processor in these systems, it does work pretty well. Especially for the
price. You can buy those same computers today for $359, and unlike the
eMac, you can puy a PCI video card if you like.
I'm most likely going to buy another workstation today, if I can find that
darn company credit card.
Dell 8400(their top of the line consumer box), 3.2GHZ P4, 512 meg of ram,
CDRW, 17" LCD, Nvidia GeForce 6800, 160 gig Sata for $1039. Add 2 gigs of
400MHZ DDR2 ram for $350. Voila, instant high end cad workstation for
under $1400. Less than a single 1.8GHZ G5, and a lot better performance.
Price a single G5 with the GeForce 6800(unfortunately only AGP, not PCIe),
and a 160 gig HD, you come up with $1999, add 2 gigs of ram(not from
Apple) for $340, you have $2339. Almost a grand more than the dell. Okay,
the Dell doesn't have a DVD burner, so add $60 to the price of the Dell.
But the Dell does include a 17" LCD. Analog, but still better than a CRT
for doing cad work IMHO. So even taking advantage of some deals online,
you can get an analog 17" LCD for around $230, than brings the single G5
up to $2539, vs the Dell's $1449(with DVD burner). I sure could buy lots
of software for that extra $1099 :)
I honestly do prefer the Macs to PCs, and have tried to steer friends and
family members towards a Mac. But they just don't compete on price. Most
of the time, they get sticker shock, and then go to a PC.
The problem is that all they do is compare raw price with no look at how
the hardware really compares and what they get for the money.
You might think the $399 PC is cheaper and it is in "raw dollars" but
when you consider the software and that you also don't have the
maintenance that is currently the hallmark of Windows, you win.
I know for a fact that a $399 PC is cheaper than any mac out there
today. Apple just doesn't compete even close to that.

I'll agree, that the iApps are EXCELLENT, best in class. But
unless you're doing a bunch of multimedia stuff, what is it really worth
to someone who is only going to be browsing the web, email, play a game or
two, do their checkbook, etc...
Post by Jim Polaski
How much is your time worth?
You mean the 15-30 minutes it takes to install Firefox, Thuderbird, Avast
& Adaware? Wow, that may break 'em :) I've even got a CD with all of 'em
on there. Ready to install :)
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-18 03:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Snit
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is
they're
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic
features Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video
editing,
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
etc probably wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're
target
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
isn't the money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST
because
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Ringo Langly
it's cheap. Apple's target market has always been for the computer
person who knows what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
--snip --
Ringo
I think Apple could have a bit better price point than they do.
However
Post by Jim Polaski
as I've said over and over, Apple can't have the economy of scale
that a
Post by Jim Polaski
Dell has, so components cost them more. Second, Apple is not like the
branded PC OEM's who essentially assemble parts and make hardware.
Apple has research division, education division, software division,
and
Post by Jim Polaski
a developer effort to support on the margin they make "selling
hardware".
-- snip --
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Jim,
I never thought about it before, but you're completely right. Apple is
MUCH more then just another Dell or even another Microsoft. They have
an entire industry within their doors (concept, development, prototype,
production, training, etc). Unlike Dell who uses off the shelf parts
for both hardware and software or Microsoft who is mainly software,
Apple has much more invested into each box then any PC manufactorer. I
can see how this can and does impact the bottom-line.
I do however think if they created a headless imac for maybe $500-$600
it would bring more users into the Apple market. Granted they'll have
many purchase these lower-priced systems instead of the higher-end
models, but even if their sales of the higher-end boxes drops by 5%-10%
I bet the overall increase of users and profit from these lower-end
boxes will still go up from users who wouldn't have even looked at
Apple from the get go due to prices. When I once suggested new users
to the computer world go with a lower-end Dell, I now strongly suggest
they go with an imac or emac (which you can now get without being in
education). These are still around $800 or so with NICE options.
And for the sub-$500 PC, I checked on several websites, and even Dell
doesn't offer anything under $500 anymore.
Bzzt, you're wrong. I bet on ANY given day, I can put together a deal at
Dell for $500.
Post by Snit
They're cheapest PC with
monitor (this morning anyway) was $539.
Sure, if you pretend there aren't any deals to be had. But I tend not to
have that good of an imagination.
Post by Snit
E-Machines does have a
sub-$500 going for $399 (after freakin $50 mail-in rebate), but this is
a box I'd hate to use. Celeron processor, video uses shared memory,
and that $399 has no monitor. So are true sub-$500 a myth anyway?
Ringo
It's not a myth. It's quite true.
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
ZnU
2004-12-19 17:32:08 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.

Go ahead. Buy a dirt cheap PC. However, chances are:

1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.

I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
--
"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against
these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."

--George W. Bush in Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-19 17:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.
And I've been trying to explain to you guys for quite a while that
your points are made up and largely exist only in your own minds.
Post by ZnU
1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
So? Delete them? Is that really a major big deal to you?
Post by ZnU
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
No you get a better OS. And I've got all the software I need already.
Post by ZnU
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
Maybe you should actually look at one instead of letting your
prejudices run wild.
Post by ZnU
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
http://free.grisoft.com/freeweb.php/doc/2/
Post by ZnU
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.
I've got three definitely noncrap monitors sitting idle.
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
What is it with Maccies and cars?
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
ZnU
2004-12-19 21:00:01 UTC
Permalink
[snip]

There's no point actually discussing any of this with you, Mayor,
because as past discussions have shown, the mindset which leads you to
reject the sort of factors I've mentioned goes far beyond just how you
view the computer industry. You're pretty much the sort of person who
can't figure out why anyone would buy a coffee table when there are
plenty of nice big cable spools around which can be had for free.
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
What is it with Maccies and cars?
I've explained that before as well. Cars, like computers, are
technological devices where there are important factors other than just
raw specifications.
--
"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against
these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."

--George W. Bush in Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-19 21:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
[snip]
There's no point actually discussing any of this with you, Mayor,
because as past discussions have shown, the mindset which leads you to
reject the sort of factors I've mentioned goes far beyond just how you
view the computer industry. You're pretty much the sort of person who
can't figure out why anyone would buy a coffee table when there are
plenty of nice big cable spools around which can be had for free.
Actually I'm the kind of person who wouldn't be able to figure out why
you would insist that the one brand of coffee table was perfection
itself and all the other coffee tables to be junk when they're all
essentially the same.
You would be there pointing out look this 'perfect' one has a design
carved into the front with lines 1/8" while all the others use lines
1/4" and declaring anyone who thinks that 1/8" lines are meaningless
when it comes to coffee tables is a blind fool unable to tell good
from bad.
Post by ZnU
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
What is it with Maccies and cars?
I've explained that before as well. Cars, like computers, are
technological devices where there are important factors other than just
raw specifications.
With several key differences, namely its possible, even finacially
desirable to build a computer from parts. Most people have neither the
facilities to build a car from parts, nor is it finacially desirable.
What makes a 'good' car is even more subjective than what makes a
'good' computer. George likes sports cars. You are always carrying on
about luxury cars. I like minivans. Most people don't care so long as
it gets them from Point A to Point B in a reasonable amount of
comfort.
All cars work a like. Computers don't, at least at the operator
control level.
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
Rick
2004-12-19 18:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.
1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
My desktop wasn't littered with anything.
Post by ZnU
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
I didn't get any software with the box. I DLed the ISOs and got hundreds
of good apps.
Post by ZnU
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
Strong case. Good keyboard.
Post by ZnU
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
No virii. No trojans.
Post by ZnU
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.
I kept the monitor I had. I wonder how you can honestly make your above
comment.
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
I know you'd like to ignore my above answers, but as I've said in the
past, your opinion is just your opinion.
--
Rick
ZnU
2004-12-19 21:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.
1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
My desktop wasn't littered with anything.
Post by ZnU
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
I didn't get any software with the box. I DLed the ISOs and got hundreds
of good apps.
See below.
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
Strong case. Good keyboard.
From who?
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
No virii. No trojans.
Rick, we're talking about typical users going out and buying home
computers. Linux is still almost entirely irrelevant to this market. I
know, all your tech-head friends run it, and maybe you've even installed
on on your grandmother's computer. But from the perspective of the wider
market, it's totally off the radar.
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.
I kept the monitor I had. I wonder how you can honestly make your above
comment.
I'm sorry, what does keeping the monitor you had have to do with my
statement about what sort of monitor you'd get if there was one included
in the bundle?
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
I know you'd like to ignore my above answers, but as I've said in the
past, your opinion is just your opinion.
In the past, you've demonstrated a total lack of understanding of a wide
range of usability issues. You don't even seem to understand that
usability is a valid area of consideration. Remember that thread when
you apparently in total honesty couldn't figure out why I could have any
objections to Linux applications that actually, you know, worked? Some
of us set our standards a bit higher than "Hey, this program actually
runs!"
--
"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against
these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."

--George W. Bush in Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004
Rick
2004-12-20 00:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.
1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
My desktop wasn't littered with anything.
Post by ZnU
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
I didn't get any software with the box. I DLed the ISOs and got hundreds
of good apps.
See below.
You should have answered here. And, BTW, installing Linux, in many (most?)
instances is just hitting install. Installing programs in many (most)
instances is just selecting them in the GUI package manager.
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
Strong case. Good keyboard.
From who?
Some guys based in Atlanta.
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
No virii. No trojans.
Rick, we're talking about typical users going out and buying home
computers. Linux is still almost entirely irrelevant to this market.
In -your- opinion.
Post by ZnU
I
know, all your tech-head friends run it, and maybe you've even installed
on on your grandmother's computer.
Actually my 'tech-head' friends usually run Macs.
Post by ZnU
But from the perspective of the wider
market, it's totally off the radar.
Off the radar != irrelevant.
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.
I kept the monitor I had. I wonder how you can honestly make your above
comment.
I'm sorry, what does keeping the monitor you had have to do with my
statement about what sort of monitor you'd get if there was one included
in the bundle?
fine, fine. I guess you know every single monitor model, and absolutely
know all the non-Mac monitors are crap.
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
I know you'd like to ignore my above answers, but as I've said in the
past, your opinion is just your opinion.
In the past, you've demonstrated a total lack of understanding of a wide
range of usability issues.
in the past you have demonstrated a total lack of understanding of Linux
usability.
Post by ZnU
You don't even seem to understand that
usability is a valid area of consideration.
You don't see to understand that Linux 'usability problems' are becoming
less and less of an issue.
Post by ZnU
Remember that thread when
you apparently in total honesty couldn't figure out why I could have any
objections to Linux applications that actually, you know, worked?
No, I don't.
Post by ZnU
Some
of us set our standards a bit higher than "Hey, this program actually
runs!"
And some of you are just snobs.
--
Rick
ZnU
2004-12-20 18:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
[snip]
Post by Mayor of R'lyeh
Post by Jim Polaski
However for that $500 if you do get it, it's a meager computer...with
things like shared memory and a average monitor if that.;
I love this. When a PC whups up on a Mac in performance its always
'That's way more computer than most people need so it doesn't count'.
When a PC whups up on a Mac in price its always 'That's not a powerful
top of the line computer so it doesn't count.'
And you guys really can't figure out why you're so entertaining to
talk to? 8)
Oh, one of those bargain basement PCs will certainly be *fast* enough
for most users. But, as people have been trying to explain to you for
quite a few years, speed is not the only thing that matters.
1) Your desktop will be littered with junk that various parties paid the
OEM to install.
My desktop wasn't littered with anything.
Post by ZnU
2) You won't get a software bundle remotely close to what you get with a
Mac. Starting with the operating system.
I didn't get any software with the box. I DLed the ISOs and got hundreds
of good apps.
See below.
You should have answered here. And, BTW, installing Linux, in many (most?)
instances is just hitting install. Installing programs in many (most)
instances is just selecting them in the GUI package manager.
Installing something like SuSE is typically a bit easier than installing
Windows, these days. That might be useful, except that a significant
fraction of the computer-using population would never attempt a Windows
install to begin with.

See, that's the thing. The problem isn't clicking through the installer
program. The problem is users understanding why they'd want to install
Linux in the first place, and then choosing the right distro, and then
selecting the right applications, and then moving their data over from
Windows. Most users just don't have the basic computer knowledge to make
informed decisions, or even realize that there are other choices they
can make.
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
3) The machine will be of extremely poor quality physically; flimsy
plastic, three ounce keyboard, etc.
Strong case. Good keyboard.
From who?
Some guys based in Atlanta.
Not something bundled with a $500 Dell, then.
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
4) You'll end up having to pay some yearly fee for an antivirus
subscription.
No virii. No trojans.
Rick, we're talking about typical users going out and buying home
computers. Linux is still almost entirely irrelevant to this market.
In -your- opinion.
Post by ZnU
I know, all your tech-head friends run it, and maybe you've even
installed on on your grandmother's computer.
Actually my 'tech-head' friends usually run Macs.
Post by ZnU
But from the perspective of the wider
market, it's totally off the radar.
Off the radar != irrelevant.
Does this mean something?
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
5) If there's a bundled monitor, it'll be crap.
I kept the monitor I had. I wonder how you can honestly make your above
comment.
I'm sorry, what does keeping the monitor you had have to do with my
statement about what sort of monitor you'd get if there was one included
in the bundle?
fine, fine. I guess you know every single monitor model, and absolutely
know all the non-Mac monitors are crap.
No, just the cheap ones bundled with cheap computers.
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
I know you'd like to totally ignore these sorts of factors, but as I've
explained in the past, this is a bit like ignoring that there's any
advantage for luxury cars because they typically don't have higher top
speeds than other cars.
I know you'd like to ignore my above answers, but as I've said in the
past, your opinion is just your opinion.
In the past, you've demonstrated a total lack of understanding of a wide
range of usability issues.
in the past you have demonstrated a total lack of understanding of Linux
usability.
I'm not sure what that means.

[snip]
--
"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against
these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."

--George W. Bush in Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004
Rick
2004-12-20 19:11:28 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by ZnU
Post by Rick
Post by ZnU
In the past, you've demonstrated a total lack of understanding of a wide
range of usability issues.
in the past you have demonstrated a total lack of understanding of Linux
usability.
I'm not sure what that means.
Then how do you expect me to know what your statement means?
--
Rick
Tim Smith
2004-12-10 05:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ringo Langly
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap! Yeah, they run Windows and allow the user to do most basic features
Windows can do, but gaming, high-end graphic/video editing, etc probably
wont do very well. Apple knows this, so they're target isn't the
money-pinching people wanting to by a computer JUST because it's cheap.
Apple's target market has always been for the computer person who knows
what they want -- and you get what you pay for.
Well, I doubt the eMac would be all that great at gaming, either. Anyone
know? Looking at the specs, it looks like my Powerbook is equal or better
in every relevant area (1.5 GHz G4 vs. 1.25 GHz G4, Radeon 9700 with 128 MB
of video RAM vs Radeon 9200 with 32 MB), and the Powerbook is a little pokey
at World of Warcraft, for example.
--
--Tim Smith
Ringo Langly
2004-12-14 14:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tim,

I know my PowerMac G4 with dual 867 Processors and 768 Megs/Ram plays
most current games like UT2004 quite well with no jumping at all. The
eMac is more powerful then my PowerMac, so I'm thinking it might hold
its own at gaming quite well - though I've never used one before. The
video is kind of underpar, but everything else seems like it should
handle games and higher-end graphic editing just fine.
Take care,

Ringo
anonymous
2004-12-12 15:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Apple is in the premium market, where the money is. Apple is in the black.
Gateway is an economy computer compared to Apple. Gateway closed it's
stores, while Apple is opening them. They're also going back to basics while
Apple has expanded with iPods and Airport. Apple is selective in it's
market, kinda like Southwest Airlines. Southwest Airlines doesn't pursue all
markets. They pursue profitable markets.
Post by Ringo Langly
Hi JP,
One problem with many of the sub-$500 PC's (like e-machines) is they're
crap!
I like the cheap computers, too, but when I add features I want, they're
always the same price like $2000. I'm often tempted by the sub-$100
computers in the Fry's ads, but Virtual PC does the trick with versitility
and convenience.
Post by Ringo Langly
I personally do wish Apple would release a version of the iMac without
the monitor for users who already have money invested in a nice CRT or
LCD (like me),
It's the PowerMac, now in the cheaper $1500 single CPU model. That's about
the price of my WinXP machine without the monitor.
Post by Ringo Langly
the average PC user is.
What is average? 80% of the market. Now what's that?
Post by Ringo Langly
Personally I think the best move Apple can do right now is to get their
computers into more stores.
Apple is opening more stores. But they also do the Dell thing with direct
sales, like the website.
Post by Ringo Langly
Bottom line -- if Apple can create a NICE PC for under $500 (which I
think they can) and get their product into more stores, then I think
they'll definately grow.
Their sell of the eMac to the general public and introduction of the cheaper
$1500 PowerMac supports this arguement.
Post by Ringo Langly
Take care, and thanks for the thread...
Ringo
Tim Smith
2004-12-10 05:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
OK, here is what happens when he tries to go to Dell's site:

But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?

Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.

As far as finding a sub-$500 PC goes, which he claims he couldn't do, let's
give it a try. We'll start at www.dell.com.

1. Click "home and home office".

2. Click "desktops".

3. Click "Start Shopping Desktops".

4. Click "Choose Dimension 2400".

5. Click "Recommended Solutions".

6. Click "Select" for the cheapest one.

7. Click "Add to Cart".

Total price: $491.40. (That includes shipping, and excludes any sales tax).
Things included:
2.4 GHz Celeron
WinXP
512 MB RAM
keyboard and mouse
17" monitor
40 GB disk
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
DVD-ROM
speakers
color printer

Now, you might argue that the eMac is a better deal, or more capable, or
something, but he's claiming that the $500 PC does not exist.
--
--Tim Smith
Snit
2004-12-10 14:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
Ok, but then he would not be looking at the home models.

Do you really not get his point that the artificial separation on Dell's
site is a silly marketing gimmick? And then you claim *he* appears to be an
idiot - when you do not get *his* point?
--
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.
Roy Santoro, Psycho Proverb Zone (http://snipurl.com/BurdenOfProof)
Tim Smith
2004-12-10 17:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Tim Smith
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
Ok, but then he would not be looking at the home models.
Do you really not get his point that the artificial separation on Dell's
site is a silly marketing gimmick? And then you claim *he* appears to be an
idiot - when you do not get *his* point?
Read his paragraph again. He says that you have to choose at the first screen,
and then that you are locked into that choice. Furthermore, he says that what
you get offered down the different paths is the same, when it is in fact not.
There is some overlap, of course, but there are also things featured in each
branch that are not featured in the other (e.g., the home branch has consumer
items features, the business branch has workstations and servers and storage).
--
--Tim Smith
Snit
2004-12-10 20:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Snit
Post by Tim Smith
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
Ok, but then he would not be looking at the home models.
Do you really not get his point that the artificial separation on Dell's
site is a silly marketing gimmick? And then you claim *he* appears to be an
idiot - when you do not get *his* point?
Read his paragraph again. He says that you have to choose at the first
screen, and then that you are locked into that choice.
And what do you know! Unless you start over, you are! He is exactly
right... assuming you have any sense to understand his comments.
Post by Tim Smith
Furthermore, he says that what you get offered down the different paths is the
same, when it is in fact not. There is some overlap, of course, but there are
also things featured in each branch that are not featured in the other (e.g.,
the home branch has consumer items features, the business branch has
workstations and servers and storage).
Sigh... I did not take his comments to imply a 100% overlap. Seems you did
not understand what he meant.

--
I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.
c***@hotmail.com
2004-12-16 21:32:55 UTC
Permalink
There's no question Apple is losing out by not offering a LC-like box
that is not an all-in-one or a large tower.
Jim Polaski
2004-12-18 00:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
As far as finding a sub-$500 PC goes, which he claims he couldn't do, let's
give it a try. We'll start at www.dell.com.
1. Click "home and home office".
2. Click "desktops".
3. Click "Start Shopping Desktops".
4. Click "Choose Dimension 2400".
5. Click "Recommended Solutions".
6. Click "Select" for the cheapest one.
7. Click "Add to Cart".
Total price: $491.40. (That includes shipping, and excludes any sales tax).
2.4 GHz Celeron
WinXP
512 MB RAM
keyboard and mouse
17" monitor
40 GB disk
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
DVD-ROM
speakers
color printer
Now, you might argue that the eMac is a better deal, or more capable, or
something, but he's claiming that the $500 PC does not exist.
USB( I assume that's there) but where is firewire? If I have a digital
camera or DV, well and today Digital Still outstrips film cameras in
sales so....
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Steve Mackay
2004-12-18 02:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's particularly
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
As far as finding a sub-$500 PC goes, which he claims he couldn't do, let's
give it a try. We'll start at www.dell.com.
1. Click "home and home office".
2. Click "desktops".
3. Click "Start Shopping Desktops".
4. Click "Choose Dimension 2400".
5. Click "Recommended Solutions".
6. Click "Select" for the cheapest one.
7. Click "Add to Cart".
Total price: $491.40. (That includes shipping, and excludes any sales tax).
2.4 GHz Celeron
WinXP
512 MB RAM
keyboard and mouse
17" monitor
40 GB disk
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
DVD-ROM
speakers
color printer
Now, you might argue that the eMac is a better deal, or more capable, or
something, but he's claiming that the $500 PC does not exist.
USB( I assume that's there) but where is firewire? If I have a digital
camera or DV, well and today Digital Still outstrips film cameras in
sales so....
It's a $39 option IIRC. I almost selected it for the group of PCs I bought
a few weeks ago. There may not be any firewire, but there is 6 USB2 ports
on the thing.
Edwin
2004-12-20 16:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or
Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the logistics
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it forces you to
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You have to
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash screen.
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down the middle
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get to look at
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's
particularly
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product for sale
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different ways. Do they
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're doing
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who wants to
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on the first
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
As far as finding a sub-$500 PC goes, which he claims he couldn't do, let's
give it a try. We'll start at www.dell.com.
1. Click "home and home office".
2. Click "desktops".
3. Click "Start Shopping Desktops".
4. Click "Choose Dimension 2400".
5. Click "Recommended Solutions".
6. Click "Select" for the cheapest one.
7. Click "Add to Cart".
Total price: $491.40. (That includes shipping, and excludes any sales tax).
2.4 GHz Celeron
WinXP
512 MB RAM
keyboard and mouse
17" monitor
40 GB disk
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
DVD-ROM
speakers
color printer
Now, you might argue that the eMac is a better deal, or more capable, or
something, but he's claiming that the $500 PC does not exist.
USB( I assume that's there) but where is firewire? If I have a digital
camera or DV, well and today Digital Still outstrips film cameras in
sales so....
It's a $39 option IIRC. I almost selected it for the group of PCs I bought
a few weeks ago. There may not be any firewire, but there is 6 USB2 ports
on the thing.
That highlights the dishonesty many Mac advocates engage in when they
compare a Mac to a PC. Jim demands that Firewire be added to the PC if
it is to be compared to a Mac, but he doesn't demand that more USB
ports, a three button mouse, and a floppy drive be added to the Mac
(along with perhaps more RAM and VRAM).
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-20 20:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Jim Polaski
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Jim Polaski
But what happens when you go buy that Sub $500 HP,Dell or
Gateway?
http://www.billpalmer.net/2004/12/should-apple-join-other-pc-companies.ht
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
But even putting Dell's apparent ugly-stick beating aside, the
logistics
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
of the site are all wrong, right from the first choice it
forces you to
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
immediately make: are you buying for work, or for home? You
have to
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
choose one or the other, or you don't even get past the splash
screen.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
That's just sad. Is there some kind of Berlin Wall going down
the middle
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
of Dell's product line? If I'm a home user, I don't even get
to look at
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
the models that are being offered for "work"? It's
particularly
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
insulting, considering that Dell only has one faceless product
for sale
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
anyway, just configured eight thousand slightly different
ways. Do they
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
think they're impressing anyone by pretending that they're
doing
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
something distinct for the two groups of people?
Apparently, it never occured to him that if he is a home user who
wants to
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
look at the work models, he could just click on the work link on
the first
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
page. I.e., he appears to be an idiot. Keep that in mind.
As far as finding a sub-$500 PC goes, which he claims he couldn't
do, let's
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
give it a try. We'll start at www.dell.com.
1. Click "home and home office".
2. Click "desktops".
3. Click "Start Shopping Desktops".
4. Click "Choose Dimension 2400".
5. Click "Recommended Solutions".
6. Click "Select" for the cheapest one.
7. Click "Add to Cart".
Total price: $491.40. (That includes shipping, and excludes any
sales tax).
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
2.4 GHz Celeron
WinXP
512 MB RAM
keyboard and mouse
17" monitor
40 GB disk
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
DVD-ROM
speakers
color printer
Now, you might argue that the eMac is a better deal, or more
capable, or
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Tim Smith
something, but he's claiming that the $500 PC does not exist.
USB( I assume that's there) but where is firewire? If I have a
digital
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
camera or DV, well and today Digital Still outstrips film cameras
in
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Jim Polaski
sales so....
It's a $39 option IIRC. I almost selected it for the group of PCs I
bought
Post by Steve Mackay
a few weeks ago. There may not be any firewire, but there is 6 USB2
ports
Post by Steve Mackay
on the thing.
That highlights the dishonesty many Mac advocates engage in when they
compare a Mac to a PC. Jim demands that Firewire be added to the PC if
it is to be compared to a Mac, but he doesn't demand that more USB
ports, a three button mouse, and a floppy drive be added to the Mac
(along with perhaps more RAM and VRAM).
That's nothing. Just think about the software bundles that come with
most parts. You'd have to add several hundred dollars to the Mac to
get a 'fair' comparison in order to compensate for the software
bundled with my video card alone.
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
Harri Mellin
2004-12-20 21:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edwin
a floppy drive
what the ##"%&%/ is that ?
--
-------------------------------------------
Swedish Webcams <http://www.webcams.zap.to>
-------------------------------------------
Mayor of R'lyeh
2004-12-20 21:47:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:18:06 +0100, Harri Mellin
Post by Harri Mellin
Post by Edwin
a floppy drive
what the ##"%&%/ is that ?
Its a bit of still widely used and useful technology that Your Lord
and Savior, Steve Be His Name, has forbidden you from using lest you
become unclean.
--
"...I doubt that I would ever buy a Mac. I've seen
what owning one can do to people. And I don't want
any part of that."

Rich Brooks
columnist for the
Southwest Florida
Herald-Tribune
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