Discussion:
Some reasons for Mac vs PC
(too old to reply)
Dan Davis
2004-04-17 05:11:08 UTC
Permalink
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.

I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.

Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
:

1 - Price.

Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.

I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.

As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.

The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.

Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.

iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.


2 - Performance

Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.

The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.

DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.

This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.



Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.

-Dan
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-17 05:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
OS 9's strength, other than its UI, was that it was an incredibly modular
system - very easy to add and remove extensions to the OS. Even OS X, which
does that to some extent, does not equal OS 9 in that respect. OS X,
however, is still far, far ahead of any version of Windows in this regard,
and the added benefits of OS X more than make up for what has been lost by
the transition from 9 to X.
Post by Dan Davis
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
And the upgrades may or may not work... you lose in time and stress what you
gain in money... if there is any gain at all.
Post by Dan Davis
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
Funny - you come to the complete opposite conclusion as many in here - that
at the low end Macs are a bit expensive, but at the high end they are a
decent deal.
Post by Dan Davis
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
They are a great deal. No doubt.
Post by Dan Davis
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
True - but there is more to benchmark speed in making a computer valuable.
Much more.
Post by Dan Davis
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
Dan Davis
2004-04-17 10:28:08 UTC
Permalink
I don't really see the high-end macs being a good deal, and that isnt
really what I've been seeing in these groups either. Perhaps for
certain specific tasks, they probably can't be beat on the PC side.
But let's be real : these things start at $1700 and go up to over 3
grand without a monitor. For $1700 in the PC world, you can buy a
dual Xeon capable box (with one processor, maybe 2 if you sacrifice
elsewhere) with RAID and a top of the line video card. For 3 grand
you can (would almost have to) get a bit crazy with raid, expensive
monitors, multiple DVD-RWs, high-end audio cards and such. Not that
many need that, but that's what you're looking at.

In the low end, eMacs and iBooks, it's hard to find a really
comparable setup from vendors like Dell. I priced out a couple of
their low end systems configured like an eMac and wound up with
something that costs about 100-200 bucks more. Some of that is
subjective of course : you could build a PC cheaper, probably buy a
'cheap' PC for less. Still, eMacs are competitive on a price /
feature point even if they aren't terribly competitive on performance
(this also being relative, any linux user can tell you that the OS has
a lot to do with performance above and beyond the hardware, and Apple
is really selling systems beause of its OS more than its hardware).

Let me illustrate what I mean by 'cheap'. My ThinkPad T30 is a very
nice laptop, provided to me by my employer. I also have an HP
Pavilion ze4325 (XP2000+) with 40gb drive, 512meg ram, cd/rw - my
personal laptop I'm using at this moment. The ThinkPad is easily
faster despite having a slower CPU (1.4 Pentium M), less RAM, and a
comparable hard drive. Perhaps a better example is using wireless :
I have a high power SMC 802.11b card. In the thinkpad i can pick up
my AP from 1/4 mile away using this card. In my Pavilion, range is
about 300-400 feet. Same card, different laptops, similar specs on
the laptops. Obviously, there is a penalty for using my cheap
Pavilion, even though one would not see it on the spec sheet. HP
skimped on something; I don't know what it was, i could guess, but I
essentially got what I paid for (which is fine, it does what i want
for now).

In other words, PCs are inconsistent in their performance regardless
of feature lists.

Valuewise, iBooks blow away anything I've seen in the PC world. If
they are of high quality (and everything i've seen/heard says they
are), then so much the better.

G5's may be competitive from a performance standpoint, but IMO not a
price standpoint (yet).

-Dan
<snip>
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Dan Davis
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
Funny - you come to the complete opposite conclusion as many in here - that
at the low end Macs are a bit expensive, but at the high end they are a
decent deal.
<snip>
Craig Koller
2004-04-17 16:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I don't really see the high-end macs being a good deal, and that isnt
really what I've been seeing in these groups either. Perhaps for
certain specific tasks, they probably can't be beat on the PC side.
But let's be real : these things start at $1700 and go up to over 3
grand without a monitor. For $1700 in the PC world, you can buy a
dual Xeon capable box (with one processor, maybe 2 if you sacrifice
elsewhere) with RAID and a top of the line video card. For 3 grand
you can (would almost have to) get a bit crazy with raid, expensive
monitors, multiple DVD-RWs, high-end audio cards and such. Not that
many need that, but that's what you're looking at.
The G5's value is a sliding thing, because its price ... isn't. Back in
September the Dualie 2Ghz G5 was a much better deal than it is now
(better than an equivalent Dell box at the time), but in the interim
Wintel hardware has made incremental speed increases and price drops.
Not Apple. Although the slower G5's have come down a little.

So now Apple's doing the $500 rebate thing until the new iron arrives.
Not so great. In a little bit, when the faster, kewler G5's come out,
this will change and Steve'll no doubt do the value-uber-alles dance,
and he'll probably be right.

BUT, if you're a professional (read actually making money with your
G5), none of this really matters. $3K is nothing when you're getting
$50-100+/hr in the graphics, video, music, multimedia etc. markets. All
you want is the best, most enjoyable box to make your stuff and keep
your obscene profits rolling in.

What's more you're not worrying about a viral takedown...

[cut]
Post by Dan Davis
Valuewise, iBooks blow away anything I've seen in the PC world. If
they are of high quality (and everything i've seen/heard says they
are), then so much the better.
G5's may be competitive from a performance standpoint, but IMO not a
price standpoint (yet).
I love my G5. As a psychotically driven deal-getter, I paid much less
than the going rate. Even so, it was a lot. However, I wouldn't use
anything else, given my regular use of PC's all daaaaay long (in tandem
with a Mac, thankfully). Once you go Mac you don't go back.
zolo
2004-04-18 07:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Craig Koller wrote:
<snip>
Post by Craig Koller
BUT, if you're a professional (read actually making money with your
G5), none of this really matters. $3K is nothing when you're getting
$50-100+/hr in the graphics, video, music, multimedia etc. markets. All
you want is the best, most enjoyable box to make your stuff and keep
your obscene profits rolling in.
<snip>

THANK YOU!!!

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make for the last two weeks.

A dual 2GHz G5 is still a good value when compared with a comparably
performing (note, not comparably clocked!) dual Xeon box, and it will be
an even better value when the next wave of G5s comes out.

Discreet sells their flame visual effects systems for $250K and up.
People think it's crazy, but the effects houses with flame get
$600-$800/hr. from clients to use it. It doesn't take long for a flame
to pay for itself when used by capable hands in a busy market .

The G5 with Final Cut Pro is a steal when you consider the performance
you get for the money. It's an initial investment that pays for itself
quickly when in capable hands.

-zolo
Woofbert
2004-04-17 18:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I don't really see the high-end macs being a good deal, and that isnt
really what I've been seeing in these groups either. Perhaps for
certain specific tasks, they probably can't be beat on the PC side.
But let's be real : these things start at $1700 and go up to over 3
grand without a monitor. For $1700 in the PC world, you can buy a
dual Xeon capable box (with one processor, maybe 2 if you sacrifice
elsewhere) with RAID and a top of the line video card. For 3 grand
you can (would almost have to) get a bit crazy with raid, expensive
monitors, multiple DVD-RWs, high-end audio cards and such. Not that
many need that, but that's what you're looking at.
Let's think about what you'd do with that sort of a setup. It could be
an excellent game machine, but that seems to me to be too much to pay
when a game console has a much better performance/price ratio.

It could be an audio editing station. But then a Mac would be better
because of its better audio latency and a whole host of other technical
features. And the Mac comes with GarageBand.

It could be a video editing station. But then a Mac is better at that,
too. Final Cut Pro and DBD Studio Pro are widely used. Final Cut has
received several industry awards.

Even if you got all the same kinds of software on the Windows box, it
still wouldn't be the same.
Post by Dan Davis
In the low end, eMacs and iBooks, it's hard to find a really
comparable setup from vendors like Dell. I priced out a couple of
their low end systems configured like an eMac and wound up with
something that costs about 100-200 bucks more. Some of that is
subjective of course : you could build a PC cheaper, probably buy a
'cheap' PC for less. Still, eMacs are competitive on a price /
feature point even if they aren't terribly competitive on performance
(this also being relative, any linux user can tell you that the OS has
a lot to do with performance above and beyond the hardware, and Apple
is really selling systems beause of its OS more than its hardware).
And the Mac comes with iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto, GarageBand, iDVD, and
various other toys that either don't exist, are crummy when cheap, or
are just adequate when they cost money on the Windows side.
Post by Dan Davis
Let me illustrate what I mean by 'cheap'. My ThinkPad T30 is a very
nice laptop, provided to me by my employer. I also have an HP
Pavilion ze4325 (XP2000+) with 40gb drive, 512meg ram, cd/rw - my
personal laptop I'm using at this moment. The ThinkPad is easily
faster despite having a slower CPU (1.4 Pentium M), less RAM, and a
I have a high power SMC 802.11b card. In the thinkpad i can pick up
my AP from 1/4 mile away using this card. In my Pavilion, range is
about 300-400 feet. Same card, different laptops, similar specs on
the laptops. Obviously, there is a penalty for using my cheap
Pavilion, even though one would not see it on the spec sheet. HP
skimped on something; I don't know what it was, i could guess, but I
essentially got what I paid for (which is fine, it does what i want
for now).
In other words, PCs are inconsistent in their performance regardless
of feature lists.
Valuewise, iBooks blow away anything I've seen in the PC world. If
they are of high quality (and everything i've seen/heard says they
are), then so much the better.
I got a 12" iBook. I fitted it out with Airport Extreme and another
512MB of RAM. It does what I want.
Post by Dan Davis
G5's may be competitive from a performance standpoint, but IMO not a
price standpoint (yet).
There are really three alternatives in what OS you run on a personal
desktop or laptop these days. Windows, open source *nix, or OS X.
Windows works just about everywhere and has just about all the software
for it that you could want, and it is adequate. *nix, in the form of
Linux, BSD, and so forth, runs on everything, runs everything, looks
like anything, and, if you have the time and you're an expert in half a
dozen programming languages, you can actually correct some of the UI
horribularities that commonly appear, you can do everything. OS X runs
on Macs, has software to do just about anything you might want including
just about all of that *nix software, and has a really good UI for the
non-expert user. Initial price and performance are only part of the
picture.
--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.
Charles Rootski
2004-04-17 15:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
This is Apple's secret weapon, Unix gear-heads.
While the desktop (historical) Apple audience settles in to the
"Big Change", legions of knowledgable data center types are raising
an eyebrow and taking note. Microsoft is fighting it's reputation
for shoddy implementations of second hand technology every step of
the way into the data center, and to the credit of their marketting
machine making inroads. My view of my first apple was : "Ah, a new
Unix RISC box, well let's see what it can do". If apple can succeed
with melding it's value added with the OSS world (e.g. Apache, MySQL)
it could "come out of the sun" and descend on it's competition.
Or not. :)
Post by §¼¡Ý
OS 9's strength, other than its UI, was that it was an incredibly modular
system - very easy to add and remove extensions to the OS. Even OS X, which
does that to some extent, does not equal OS 9 in that respect. OS X,
however, is still far, far ahead of any version of Windows in this regard,
and the added benefits of OS X more than make up for what has been lost by
the transition from 9 to X.
I didin't use OS 9, so take this with that in mind but as I
remember it there were nothing but troubles from different combinations
of extensions in <= OS 9. I can remember waiting for the recording
engineer to reboot with seemingly every possible permutation of plugins
to get ProTools to run right. OS X can UNload a driver from a running
kernel! Now _that_ to me is modularity!
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Dan Davis
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
<-- snip -->
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Dan Davis
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
Funny - you come to the complete opposite conclusion as many in here - that
at the low end Macs are a bit expensive, but at the high end they are a
decent deal.
He is evalutating it as a sys admin, not a pedestrian.
Steve Mackay
2004-04-17 08:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks.
You can, I have...
Post by Dan Davis
Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage.
Wrong.
Post by Dan Davis
We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
#1) $400 doesn't mean integrated video
#2) $400 doesn't mean "relatively slow" CPU. Especially compared to
Apple's consumer offerings.
#3) What brand of CD/RWs aren't "jittery"?

Here's a PC I just built for my neice.
Soyo SYk7VME Motherboard $48, but I get a $50 rebate. So they paid me $2 :)
Athlon XP Barton 2500+ 333MHZFSB $80 retail version with fan and heatsink.
120 Gig Seagate HD $60 After rebate
Mad Dog GeForce FX5200 $39 After rebate Khypermedia(relabled LiteOn) 52X
CDRW $10 after rebates. LiteOn MicroATX case $45 http://tinyurl.com/32sjl
512MB Ram(2x dual channel 256 meg from komusa.com) $100 Total cost: $332
No need for the Microsoft Tax, since I'll be loading Fedora.

No integrated video(well, there is integrated video on the mobo, but it's
not used). No "jittery" CDRW. PLENTY of fast ram. And it's highly doubtful
that it'll be upgraded "the month after you buy it".
Post by Dan Davis
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices on
the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault though -
it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more demand
than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get DVD-RW/CDRW,
and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz processor, and have
80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all works out of the box. No
questions, you don't have to worry about your video card causing your
CDROM to stop working or your mouse will make your USB keyboard flake
out.
I agree the new eMac is a good deal. But it's still a bit overpriced to
entice people to come over from "the dark side" :)
Post by Dan Davis
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
Yup
Post by Dan Davis
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
Yup
Post by Dan Davis
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
I just priced a dual Opteron 246 2.0GHZ last week. Parts alone are $2200,
including the "microsoft tax". That's Dual 2.0GHZ Opterons, Radeon 9600
Pro, DVD+/-R/RW drive, Tyan Mobo, 512 meg of ram, 160 gig Sata HD.
Post by Dan Davis
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-17 14:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks.
You can, I have...
That, dear readers, is called support for the original poster.
Dan Davis
2004-04-17 18:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Your argument here is actually supportive of what I was saying.

Yes, you can make a homebuilt PC for less than an eMac (though I would
point out that you don't include a monitor in that price). I already
knew that and stated as much.

So what are you getting?

First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.

Second, you have to send in a ton of rebates from what you just
described. You do realize that like 90% of the people who buy items
with mail-in rebates do not in fact use those rebates? That's why
they are mail-in, instead of instant, the companies know that most
people dont use them.

In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.

Now, what do you have? A bunch of parts and peices that you need to
assemble. Now I'm quite capable of doing that - have been doing it
for many years for my own PCs. In fact, over the last 18 or so years
I've been using PCs, I've only bought 3 actual new PCs (other than
laptops). A Corona luggable, a Franklin, and a Tandy. Obviously I
haven't purchased a new PC in a long long time. All my other desktops
sort of blend into one stream of endless upgrades and miscellaneous
parts. Many of those peices are still in boxes or lying around in the
closet somewhere.

And of course, you're now talking about a Linux PC. I wouldn't mind
going to Linux, but I feel that OS X gives the best of both worlds. A
desktop Unix with a good base of commercial applications and support.
Linux has commercial apps, sure, but they are mostly heavy-duty apps
that I don't need. If you want Windows, add $100 for that. Add $200
if you want XP Pro, which is what you'll need to be comparable with
the abilities of OS X. Now you're probabaly up to $500-$600 with a
monitor and a viable OS that you can actually buy software for.

And now the big question - with all those low end, probably
discontinued parts, how is support going to be? Lets say your CD-ROM
doesnt work right. Is it the CD-ROM? The motherboard? Maybe its the
driver in your no-name video card? Who will you call for support, and
who will they blame? And how will you handle those rebates if
something fails? I tend to buy reliable name brand components for my
PCs because they are more likely to work and work well, which is a lot
more important to me than saving $100 or $200. Kingston RAM, Tyan or
Asus motherboards, CPUs with the right heatsink/fan included (retail).
If I spend 10 hours trying to figure out some obscure problem because
of cheap components on my PC, the whole deal becomes a losing
proposition. If I lose data because of it, it can make the whole
point of owning a PC moot. If you choose good components, you wont
get rebates and youll tack on another $200 to that price.

Now you're in the same range as an eMac, and you still don't have a
DVD-RW.

You also neglect to mention little nicities like a mouse and keyboard.
Of course, you probably already have those. I have several that
sorta kinda work lying around.

The point being, most people do not want to have to build their PC
just like most people don't want to have to build their washing
machine or microwave oven. Sure it's easier to make a PC than to make
a washing machine, but I would also rather have a single place to haul
it back to if something doesnt work. If you find out your
motherboards USB has a bug in it that wont let it work with your USB
mp3 jukebox, do you think they are going to fix it? Are you going to
spend the UPS money to ship it back and forth with a vendor who, in
all likelyhood, won't even fix it? Probably not. I've seen that sort
of situation way too many times with PC boards - things that either
dont work right, dont work at all, or only work 'sometimes'. Even my
HP notebook here sometimes decides it doesn't like my USB mouse - ie
when I switch my trackpad on and off, and thats a namebrand product.
It's much worse with homebuilts.

-Dan
<snip>
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks.
You can, I have...
Post by Dan Davis
Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage.
Wrong.
Post by Dan Davis
We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
#1) $400 doesn't mean integrated video
#2) $400 doesn't mean "relatively slow" CPU. Especially compared to
Apple's consumer offerings.
#3) What brand of CD/RWs aren't "jittery"?
Here's a PC I just built for my neice.
Soyo SYk7VME Motherboard $48, but I get a $50 rebate. So they paid me $2 :)
Athlon XP Barton 2500+ 333MHZFSB $80 retail version with fan and heatsink.
120 Gig Seagate HD $60 After rebate
Mad Dog GeForce FX5200 $39 After rebate Khypermedia(relabled LiteOn) 52X
CDRW $10 after rebates. LiteOn MicroATX case $45 http://tinyurl.com/32sjl
512MB Ram(2x dual channel 256 meg from komusa.com) $100 Total cost: $332
No need for the Microsoft Tax, since I'll be loading Fedora.
No integrated video(well, there is integrated video on the mobo, but it's
not used). No "jittery" CDRW. PLENTY of fast ram. And it's highly doubtful
that it'll be upgraded "the month after you buy it".
Martik
2004-04-17 20:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
Your argument here is actually supportive of what I was saying.
Yes, you can make a homebuilt PC for less than an eMac (though I would
point out that you don't include a monitor in that price). I already
knew that and stated as much.
So what are you getting?
First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.
Second, you have to send in a ton of rebates from what you just
described. You do realize that like 90% of the people who buy items
with mail-in rebates do not in fact use those rebates? That's why
they are mail-in, instead of instant, the companies know that most
people dont use them.
In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.
Now, what do you have? A bunch of parts and peices that you need to
assemble. Now I'm quite capable of doing that - have been doing it
for many years for my own PCs.
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
Wally
2004-04-18 05:35:32 UTC
Permalink
----------
<snip>
Post by Martik
Post by Dan Davis
Now, what do you have? A bunch of parts and peices that you need to
assemble. Now I'm quite capable of doing that - have been doing it
for many years for my own PCs.
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
Try to get in the habit of snipping :)
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 05:55:31 UTC
Permalink
habit
ok
Dan Davis
2004-04-18 06:26:47 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Martik
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.

No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.

Try going to best buy's website and look under PC Packages (eMac is a
package - fully functional out of the box). The first direct
equivalent out of the box I see is a $1700 Sony Viao. Everything
under its price has integrated video or is missing a DVD-RW; yes you
can upgrade one of the lower price models after you buy it, but even
with the cheapest of those you are basically matching up to the eMac
price using relatively no-name PC brands. A lot of them don't have
AGP slots or room for more RAM as well.

-Dan
Steve Mackay
2004-04-18 10:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
<snip>
Post by Martik
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
Sure I have... You just haven't been around enough :)
Post by Dan Davis
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
They are a solid deal, but you can get a comparibly speced, and faster PC,
for less.
Post by Dan Davis
Try going to best buy's website and look under PC Packages (eMac is a
package - fully functional out of the box). The first direct
equivalent out of the box I see is a $1700 Sony Viao.
And this is for a a 3.0GHZ Box, 17" Flat panel monitor, 512 meg of ram,
160 gig HD. Comparing this to an eMac? Why not compare this, to oh, say,
the iMac 17"? Considering it has a 17" Flat panel monitor?
$1799 base price
Add $100 for the 160 gig HD
Add $75 for the 512 Meg of ram
Add $99 for the HP Deskjet 5150

And now, subtract the rebates you get with the Sony, which brings the
price to $1350($350 in rebates).


Sony Vaio $1350
Apple iMac 17" Configured similarly $2073
That's a $723 difference.
Post by Dan Davis
Everything
under its price has integrated video or is missing a DVD-RW; yes you
can upgrade one of the lower price models after you buy it, but even
with the cheapest of those you are basically matching up to the eMac
price using relatively no-name PC brands. A lot of them don't have
AGP slots or room for more RAM as well.
Umm, last I checked, the eMac didn't have an AGP slot, OR PCI slots.
Post by Dan Davis
-Dan
Tim
2004-04-18 13:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
<snip>
Post by Martik
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
Try going to best buy's website and look under PC Packages (eMac is a
package - fully functional out of the box). The first direct
equivalent out of the box I see is a $1700 Sony Viao. Everything
under its price has integrated video or is missing a DVD-RW; yes you
can upgrade one of the lower price models after you buy it, but even
with the cheapest of those you are basically matching up to the eMac
price using relatively no-name PC brands. A lot of them don't have
AGP slots or room for more RAM as well.
-Dan
Same retailer, eMac ($1499) vs Compaq ($899+250):

Compaq/HP: http://tinyurl.com/23spv + http://tinyurl.com/2w4jx

vs.

Apple: http://tinyurl.com/22ykx


It wouldn't take me long to decide! (Compaq has more memory, expansion
slots, more USB ports, faster system bus, bigger HD, external monitor
and... best of all it's cheaper).

Tim
George Graves
2004-04-18 21:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by Dan Davis
<snip>
Post by Martik
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or just buy
one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years parts/labour
warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
Try going to best buy's website and look under PC Packages (eMac is a
package - fully functional out of the box). The first direct
equivalent out of the box I see is a $1700 Sony Viao. Everything
under its price has integrated video or is missing a DVD-RW; yes you
can upgrade one of the lower price models after you buy it, but even
with the cheapest of those you are basically matching up to the eMac
price using relatively no-name PC brands. A lot of them don't have
AGP slots or room for more RAM as well.
-Dan
Compaq/HP: http://tinyurl.com/23spv + http://tinyurl.com/2w4jx
vs.
Apple: http://tinyurl.com/22ykx
It wouldn't take me long to decide! (Compaq has more memory, expansion
slots, more USB ports, faster system bus, bigger HD, external monitor
and... best of all it's cheaper).
Tim
First of all, Anybody who buys an eMac from FutureShop needs to have
their head examined. They are charging FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS more than
Apple's list price ($999) for this computer:

http://tinyurl.com/2k9l5


Next of course is the fact that since the Compaq runs Windows, it's not
really a comparison at all. The inability of the Comapq to run OSX makes
it useless to many, it certainly makes it useless to me. I wouldn't have
one if they PAID me to take it and gave me all the software for it I
wanted for free.
--
George Graves
------------------
"If God drove a car, it would surely be an Alfa Romeo."
Juan Manuel Fangio
5-time world Grand Prix champion
Martik
2004-04-18 21:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Graves
Next of course is the fact that since the Compaq runs Windows, it's not
really a comparison at all. The inability of the Comapq to run OSX makes
it useless to many, it certainly makes it useless to me.
It is useful for 98.2%
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 21:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by George Graves
Next of course is the fact that since the Compaq runs Windows, it's not
really a comparison at all. The inability of the Comapq to run OSX makes
it useless to many, it certainly makes it useless to me.
It is useful for 98.2%
Can you support this claim? Market share figures, if that is what you are
thinking, does not.
Tim
2004-04-18 23:56:11 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by George Graves
Post by Tim
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
...
Post by George Graves
Post by Tim
Compaq/HP: http://tinyurl.com/23spv + http://tinyurl.com/2w4jx
vs.
Apple: http://tinyurl.com/22ykx
It wouldn't take me long to decide! (Compaq has more memory, expansion
slots, more USB ports, faster system bus, bigger HD, external monitor
and... best of all it's cheaper).
Tim
First of all, Anybody who buys an eMac from FutureShop needs to have
their head examined. They are charging FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS more than
http://tinyurl.com/2k9l5
Actually Future Shop is in Canada, although that doesn't totally account
for the discrepancy. I'll certainly admit that it's not the best place
to shop since they overcharge, but my plan was to pick one retailer that
sells both PC's and Mac's. Since they overcharge for both Apple and
Compaq's - as far as I can tell - the comparison still seems valid.
Post by George Graves
Next of course is the fact that since the Compaq runs Windows, it's not
really a comparison at all. The inability of the Comapq to run OSX makes
it useless to many, it certainly makes it useless to me. I wouldn't have
one if they PAID me to take it and gave me all the software for it I
wanted for free.
Regardless of what you prefer, this was a question of hardware
specifications not software. The original quotation by Dan was "No one
has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same and
features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point... eMacs are a
solid deal even by PC standards".

Tim
lefty
2004-04-18 14:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point. So
far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a moms
and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces my
point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
easy it is to match:

Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)

* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)

$849.99

http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
Woofbert
2004-04-18 17:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point. So
far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a moms
and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces my
point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.
lefty
2004-04-18 18:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.

fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
Lloyd Parsons
2004-04-18 20:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
And there is the biggesst bullshit on the air these days. The speed of
the slowest processor you can buy as current model is far and above
faster than those that are buying the cheap systems would need them
for, IMHO.

And it is easy to sell 'em cheap when you build them cheap. Apple
doesn't have a computer in the lineup that isn't well engineered and
built to look like it.

Now to the apps. Yep, those apps have a bearing on the comparison. If
you need apps that would do what iLife does, then it will either be
free, on a new mac, or $49 for older macs. You literally cannot do
those things nearly as well on the wintel/amd pcs with any software
anywhere near the price. That adds to the cost of the pc.
lefty
2004-04-18 20:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd Parsons
Post by lefty
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that
so few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac.
;-)
And there is the biggesst bullshit on the air these days. The speed of
the slowest processor you can buy as current model is far and above
faster than those that are buying the cheap systems would need them for,
IMHO.
And it is easy to sell 'em cheap when you build them cheap. Apple
doesn't have a computer in the lineup that isn't well engineered and
built to look like it.
Now to the apps. Yep, those apps have a bearing on the comparison. If
you need apps that would do what iLife does, then it will either be
free, on a new mac, or $49 for older macs. You literally cannot do
those things nearly as well on the wintel/amd pcs with any software
anywhere near the price. That adds to the cost of the pc.
lol, i was needling you all with that line. i felt it was payback for the
last minute "does it run iLife" stuff. there is a kernel of truth though,
and that is that when you get to the $800-1000 range on the PC side, you
are paying for (and getting) those faster processors, faster buses, bigger
disks, and replaceable video cards.

if you want to match more closely, maybe you should switch down to a
slower and less expandable pc, and add some more software.

maybe a dell 2400 is fair.
Lloyd Parsons
2004-04-18 21:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Lloyd Parsons
Post by lefty
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that
so few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac.
;-)
And there is the biggesst bullshit on the air these days. The speed of
the slowest processor you can buy as current model is far and above
faster than those that are buying the cheap systems would need them for,
IMHO.
And it is easy to sell 'em cheap when you build them cheap. Apple
doesn't have a computer in the lineup that isn't well engineered and
built to look like it.
Now to the apps. Yep, those apps have a bearing on the comparison. If
you need apps that would do what iLife does, then it will either be
free, on a new mac, or $49 for older macs. You literally cannot do
those things nearly as well on the wintel/amd pcs with any software
anywhere near the price. That adds to the cost of the pc.
lol, i was needling you all with that line. i felt it was payback for the
last minute "does it run iLife" stuff. there is a kernel of truth though,
and that is that when you get to the $800-1000 range on the PC side, you
are paying for (and getting) those faster processors, faster buses, bigger
disks, and replaceable video cards.
if you want to match more closely, maybe you should switch down to a
slower and less expandable pc, and add some more software.
maybe a dell 2400 is fair.
Well, I guess there could be a circumstance that I might consider
returning to wintel/amd -- but there isn't any circumstance that would
cause me to buy or recommend Dell.

I like companies that do business locally -- Dell doesn't. My local
businesses donate to the local schools and other local things, Dell
doesn't. My local dealers pay local people who can then spend locally,
Dell doesn't. My local dealers pay local taxes which helps my town,
Dell doesn't. And the list of 'Dell doesn'ts' goes on....
George Graves
2004-04-18 20:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
It's a reasonable thing to say. After all, the differences between the
two platforms hardware-wise is hardly relevant to most buyers. A
screen's a screen, a microprocessor's a microprocessor, memory is
memory, etc. But what one sees; what characterizes a particular computer
is it's OS. And for someone who values Mac OS above Windows (as I do,
for instance), the fact that a given hardware configuration, regardless
of price advantage, won't run MacOS, is ample reason to dismiss it.
Post by lefty
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
Certainly their processor clock speeds are higher. Now, as to whether or
not that translates into any REAL speed or productivity advantage, I
suspect that for the type of buyer drawn to these low-end machines, it's
a matter of almost complete irrelevance.
--
George Graves
------------------
"If God drove a car, it would surely be an Alfa Romeo."
Juan Manuel Fangio
5-time world Grand Prix champion
Woofbert
2004-04-18 21:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
I guess that means that this HP does not come with anything like the
kinds of software that the eMac comes with. Perhaps some similar
software is available, but it's expensive -- which blows the economy of
the HP.
--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.
lefty
2004-04-18 21:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
I guess that means that this HP does not come with anything like the
kinds of software that the eMac comes with. Perhaps some similar
software is available, but it's expensive -- which blows the economy of
the HP.
maybe someone with a software focus would trade down to a "smaller" Sony.
they certainly bundle a lot of A/V software:

Sony VAIO RS410 Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 2.6GHz / Microsoft®
Windows® XP Home Edition / 256MB / 120GB / DVD+-RW / CD-ROM Drive / NIC /
56K / Desktop PC

Price: $749.99
Less Rebate: - $100.00
Final Price: $649.99*

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=32516&Sku=S167-3190
Woofbert
2004-04-18 23:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
I guess that means that this HP does not come with anything like the
kinds of software that the eMac comes with. Perhaps some similar
software is available, but it's expensive -- which blows the economy of
the HP.
maybe someone with a software focus would trade down to a "smaller" Sony.
Sony VAIO RS410 Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 2.6GHz / Microsoft®
Windows® XP Home Edition / 256MB / 120GB / DVD+-RW / CD-ROM Drive / NIC /
56K / Desktop PC
These are hardware bits, not AV software.
Post by lefty
Price: $749.99
Less Rebate: - $100.00
Final Price: $649.99*
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=325
16&Sku=S167-3190
--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.
lefty
2004-04-18 23:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woofbert
These are hardware bits, not AV software.
hmmm, maybe if you follow that URL ...
GreyCloud
2004-04-18 20:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too
easy to match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle
and put in "destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not
saying it is the one i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video
memory, TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that
collapses, a second person steps forward with some variation of "does
it run Mac OS"? this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't
list the OS directly, but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that
so few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac.
;-)
Yeah, slow as in no viruses. You'll spend more time rebooting that M$ box
than getting anything done.
I've already had to reboot this old M$ box twice already today. With the
emac you can get work done. And it is faster than most of the single
accumulator PCs out there as well.
Sandman
2004-04-18 21:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
Yet none can run a OS decent enough - quite telling wouldn't you say?
--
Sandman[.net]
Dan Davis
2004-04-19 00:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by lefty
Post by Woofbert
Post by lefty
the price range you've given ($800-1000 for an emac) is way too easy to
match with more for the money. all i did was go to froogle and put in
"destkop pc dvd rw" and got the one below. i'm not saying it is the one
i'd finally buy (i'd probably look longer than this), but it shows how
Hewlett Packard Desktop Computer (at Sears)
* AMD Athlon XP Processor 3200+
* 512 MB DDR SDRAM
* DVD+RW/CD-RW
* Separate 48X CD-ROM drive
* 160GB 7200RPM Ultra DMA hard drive
* NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8X graphics card with 64MB DDR video memory,
TV out
* Front panel 7-in-1 memory card reader supports and reads most
media formats
* 3 PCI expansion slots (2 available)
* Integrated audio, 6-speaker configurable
* 2 DIMM (184-pin DDR) memory slots [one available]
* 5 USB 2.0 (1 front, 4 back)
$849.99
http://tinyurl.com/ys5ym
That's nice. Does it come with iPhoto, iTunes, Garage Band, iMovie,
Mail, iDVD, and BSD?
ah, the famous mac-advocate hand-off. for those unfamiliar, someone
starts with a hardware price/performance claim, and when that collapses, a
second person steps forward with some variation of "does it run Mac OS"?
this one is slightly more artful because it doesn't list the OS directly,
but instead names specific Mac-only software.
fwiw, i think the real problem in these $800-1000 comparisons is that so
few PC vendors make systems slow enough to really match that emac. ;-)
Actually, I never asserted a price / performance claim. Read
carefully : I asserted a price / features parity. In fact, no one has
really shown that there is a *significant* difference in those
categories between a typical PC and the eMac. In other words : price
is not really an overriding concern when choosing between a PC and a
Mac anymore.

It's also interesting to note that the PC you chose is out of stock;
the equivalent using a P4 3Ghz HP from Sears, and otherwise identical,
is $1049. Each time I look at such 'deals', i find something that is
out of place. You cannot backorder that $850 PC, you can only have
them email you when it is available.

And as far as the performance goes, too many PC users think in terms
of Mhz. Take a look at the Mhz on the Power4 CPUs used in IBM
midrange systems, the PA-Risc chips used by HP, and the UltraSPARCs.
They must be horribly slow, right? For many applications these chips
far surpass the much higher Mhz Intel chips. Or do you think that the
scientists and engineers who insist on using these systems are idiots?
For that matter, Intels own Pentium M far surpasses its own brother
the Pentium 4 Mhz for Mhz. If you know much about Intel chips at all,
you'd know that all P4s are not created equal - performance varies
with the core used and the L2 cache.

Similarly, not all G3s are created equal. There are at least 3
different G3s that I can think of - they have significant performance
differences. I'm not sure how many different G4s there are, but I do
know that the L3 cache on G4 systems greatly impacts their performance
in some applications. The G4s in the iBooks for example, have no L3
cache, hence they suffer greatly in image editing compared to the
PowerMac G4s.

And as far as getting a $1000 PC, I already have one. Athlon XP
2500+, TekRam U160 SCSI with a cheetah 18.3 gig x36LP 15kRPM drive,
120gig EIDE, DVD, CDRW, wireless mouse/keyboard, 17" LCD, wireless
network, and NVidia FX5800 128meg.

Frankly, I'm bored of PCs and irritated by substandard MS software and
substandard MS & PC 'technicians'.

Mostly what I want is a plug-and-play Unix, with supported hardware
and software, where I can work on some of my programming projects and
interface with Unix systems in a proper, Unix way. Linux is great;
I've used it heavily for about 6 years now. Getting it to work
properly with all software packages you might want to try and doing
'typical' PC type tasks is a major pain, even now. Wireless
networking support is there; it's crappy. Printer support is crappy.
Half the PC modems wont work with linux. Lots of video cards have
issues even now. Yes I know you can pick and choose your components
to work with linux; I don't want to have to do a week of research to
figure out what parts to buy. I also dont want to deal with install
and setup nightmares constantly, and OS X seems like it will give a
stable supported platform that I can *use* for everyday tasks and at
the same time drop to unix for productive work anytime I want.

-Dan
Martik
2004-04-18 21:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
It takes approx 15mins to build a PC these days. The shops around here
usually charge nothing unless it is a rush job then maybe $10.
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
http://www.legendcomputer.ca/systems.htm
CDN pricing, Asus MB's, WD or Maxtor HD's Radeon Video, infineon or kingston
memory. First 2 use cheap MB's but are ok for low-end.
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 21:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Dan Davis
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
It takes approx 15mins to build a PC these days. The shops around here
usually charge nothing unless it is a rush job then maybe $10.
Can you provide the phone number of one of these shops... I would love to
call them and ask them how long it takes them and how much they charge.
Want to bet you are not particularly close?
Martik
2004-04-18 21:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by §¼¡Ý
Can you provide the phone number of one of these shops... I would love to
call them and ask them how long it takes them and how much they charge.
Want to bet you are not particularly close?
From the link I provided 604 279-8856 They are open until 4pm today. They
have never charged me a dime to build a system to my specs. This is also the
retailer that spent 1.5 hours with me (at their store) fixing a driver
problem.
Lloyd Parsons
2004-04-18 22:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by §¼¡Ý
Can you provide the phone number of one of these shops... I would love to
call them and ask them how long it takes them and how much they charge.
Want to bet you are not particularly close?
From the link I provided 604 279-8856 They are open until 4pm today. They
have never charged me a dime to build a system to my specs. This is also the
retailer that spent 1.5 hours with me (at their store) fixing a driver
problem.
Not trying to be a smartass, but where does this guy make his money?
From pricing that you've thrown about, it is obvious that he isn't
making much on the hardware.

And if he doesn't charge to build them, then holds hands as much as you
indicate, all nothing that makes money; how does he keep his door open?

I can tell you that if you buy from me I'm going to make a fair profit
on the hardware and the warranty is parts and labor only. Not tech
support, software hand=holding or any of those other things that
practically all the wintellians have said they don't have to pay for.

Lloyd
Martik
2004-04-18 22:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd Parsons
Not trying to be a smartass, but where does this guy make his money?
From pricing that you've thrown about, it is obvious that he isn't
making much on the hardware.
And if he doesn't charge to build them, then holds hands as much as you
indicate, all nothing that makes money; how does he keep his door open?
I can tell you that if you buy from me I'm going to make a fair profit
on the hardware and the warranty is parts and labor only. Not tech
support, software hand=holding or any of those other things that
practically all the wintellians have said they don't have to pay for.
This is in Richmond, near Vancouver BC, the high tech capital of Canada.
Prices are lower here due to the proximity to the Pacific rim and fierce
competition. They do a tremendous volume and offer excellent service. I saw
some of the wholesale prices one of these retailers was paying and they're
making 10-30% on many items. The stores are always busy 7 days a week.
Lloyd Parsons
2004-04-18 22:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Lloyd Parsons
Not trying to be a smartass, but where does this guy make his money?
From pricing that you've thrown about, it is obvious that he isn't
making much on the hardware.
And if he doesn't charge to build them, then holds hands as much as you
indicate, all nothing that makes money; how does he keep his door open?
I can tell you that if you buy from me I'm going to make a fair profit
on the hardware and the warranty is parts and labor only. Not tech
support, software hand=holding or any of those other things that
practically all the wintellians have said they don't have to pay for.
This is in Richmond, near Vancouver BC, the high tech capital of Canada.
Prices are lower here due to the proximity to the Pacific rim and fierce
competition. They do a tremendous volume and offer excellent service. I saw
some of the wholesale prices one of these retailers was paying and they're
making 10-30% on many items. The stores are always busy 7 days a week.
10-30% is amazing in this market! Good on them!

thannks
Tim
2004-04-19 00:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Lloyd Parsons
Not trying to be a smartass, but where does this guy make his money?
From pricing that you've thrown about, it is obvious that he isn't
making much on the hardware.
And if he doesn't charge to build them, then holds hands as much as you
indicate, all nothing that makes money; how does he keep his door open?
I can tell you that if you buy from me I'm going to make a fair profit
on the hardware and the warranty is parts and labor only. Not tech
support, software hand=holding or any of those other things that
practically all the wintellians have said they don't have to pay for.
This is in Richmond, near Vancouver BC, the high tech capital of Canada.
Prices are lower here due to the proximity to the Pacific rim and fierce
competition. They do a tremendous volume and offer excellent service. I saw
some of the wholesale prices one of these retailers was paying and they're
making 10-30% on many items. The stores are always busy 7 days a week.
Richmond B.C. the high tech capital of Canada? I don't think so! Also,
many retailers in Toronto can certainly beat those prices - but I doubt
they have the 10-30% margin.

(For example: http://www.canadacomputers.com)
Martik
2004-04-19 00:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Richmond B.C. the high tech capital of Canada? I don't think so! Also,
many retailers in Toronto can certainly beat those prices - but I doubt
they have the 10-30% margin.
(For example: http://www.canadacomputers.com)
Unless you live here, you have no idea. Richmond is being transformed into a
mini Hong Kong!
Tim
2004-04-19 00:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Tim
Richmond B.C. the high tech capital of Canada? I don't think so! Also,
many retailers in Toronto can certainly beat those prices - but I doubt
they have the 10-30% margin.
(For example: http://www.canadacomputers.com)
Unless you live here, you have no idea. Richmond is being transformed into a
mini Hong Kong!
Actually my Wife's family is from Richmond, and although I haven't been
there for a while, I doubt it's changed that much. Besides, Toronto
(i.e. The GTA) has been going through very similar changes.

Guess it doesn't really matter which city is the high-tech capital of
Canada, since I'm sure we both get similar great deals on quality
hardware. ;)

Tim
Martik
2004-04-19 00:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Actually my Wife's family is from Richmond, and although I haven't been
there for a while, I doubt it's changed that much. Besides, Toronto
(i.e. The GTA) has been going through very similar changes.
Guess it doesn't really matter which city is the high-tech capital of
Canada, since I'm sure we both get similar great deals on quality
hardware. ;)
Not to mention unbelievable buffets. There's one in Richmond for $5.99,
chinese and Japanese including all you can eat sashimi!
Tim
2004-04-19 03:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Tim
Actually my Wife's family is from Richmond, and although I haven't been
there for a while, I doubt it's changed that much. Besides, Toronto
(i.e. The GTA) has been going through very similar changes.
Guess it doesn't really matter which city is the high-tech capital of
Canada, since I'm sure we both get similar great deals on quality
hardware. ;)
Not to mention unbelievable buffets. There's one in Richmond for $5.99,
chinese and Japanese including all you can eat sashimi!
No doubt - get a great PC, then a great lunch for less than the cost of
an eMac! :)
Martik
2004-04-18 21:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Dan Davis
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
It takes approx 15mins to build a PC these days. The shops around here
usually charge nothing unless it is a rush job then maybe $10.
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
http://www.legendcomputer.ca/systems.htm
CDN pricing, Asus MB's, WD or Maxtor HD's Radeon Video, infineon or kingston
memory. First 2 use cheap MB's but are ok for low-end.
From the link I provided 604 279-8856 They are open until 4pm today. They
have never charged me a dime to build a system to my specs. This is also the
retailer that spent 1.5 hours with me (at their store) fixing a driver
problem.
Alan Baker
2004-04-19 04:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Martik
Post by Dan Davis
That's not what the guy was talking about. He was talking about
assembling a PC from a bunch of cheap parts himself using a ton of
rebates. If you call a retailer (im guessing you mean a moms and pops
shop) and have a PC assembled, it will cost you a lot more than what
he quoted.
It takes approx 15mins to build a PC these days. The shops around here
usually charge nothing unless it is a rush job then maybe $10.
Post by Dan Davis
No one has come up with a good name-brand PC setup that has the same
specs and features as an eMac at a significantly lower price point.
So far it has been a bunch of random cheap-as-you-can-find parts and a
moms and pops special (with no details). This really just reinforces
my point : eMacs are a solid deal even by PC standards.
http://www.legendcomputer.ca/systems.htm
CDN pricing, Asus MB's, WD or Maxtor HD's Radeon Video, infineon or
kingston
Post by Martik
memory. First 2 use cheap MB's but are ok for low-end.
From the link I provided 604 279-8856 They are open until 4pm today. They
have never charged me a dime to build a system to my specs. This is also the
retailer that spent 1.5 hours with me (at their store) fixing a driver
problem.
Instructive:

"Warranty Rules

All systems come with 1 year parts and labor depot warranty on
system hardware only. (software is not covered by warranty)
There is NO REFUND for all products. Defective products will be
EXCHANGEDonly.
All warranty services and exchanges must accomplish with original
store invoice.
OEM/bulk pack product can be exchanged with the same product
within 7 days from purchase date if the product is defective.
NO EXCHANGE for retail box version products, please contact the
corresponding manufacturers."
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
GreyCloud
2004-04-23 23:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Dan Davis
Your argument here is actually supportive of what I was saying.
Yes, you can make a homebuilt PC for less than an eMac (though I
would point out that you don't include a monitor in that price). I
already knew that and stated as much.
So what are you getting?
First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.
Second, you have to send in a ton of rebates from what you just
described. You do realize that like 90% of the people who buy items
with mail-in rebates do not in fact use those rebates? That's why
they are mail-in, instead of instant, the companies know that most
people dont use them.
In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.
Now, what do you have? A bunch of parts and peices that you need to
assemble. Now I'm quite capable of doing that - have been doing it
for many years for my own PCs.
I can call any retailer here and have a new PC built to my specs or
just buy one of their offerings, usually in the same day. 2 years
parts/labour warranty and full support for life.
The last system I had built had a problem with display drivers, so I
returned it to the retailer and he spent 1.5 hours with me solving the
problem - No charge!
I never had to put up with that on the eMac. It worked fine right out of
the box.
No screwdriver mechanics needed.

Steve Mackay
2004-04-18 10:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
Your argument here is actually supportive of what I was saying.
Yes, you can make a homebuilt PC for less than an eMac (though I would
point out that you don't include a monitor in that price). I already
knew that and stated as much.
So what are you getting?
A PC, for much less, and much faster than anything Apple offers to a
normal consumer.
Post by Dan Davis
First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.
Ram, Mobo, CPU and case were bought online. The rest locally thru
officemax & CompUSA.
Post by Dan Davis
Second, you have to send in a ton of rebates from what you just
described. You do realize that like 90% of the people who buy items
with mail-in rebates do not in fact use those rebates? That's why
they are mail-in, instead of instant, the companies know that most
people dont use them.
Well, then I'm not "most people" :) I send in my rebates.
Post by Dan Davis
In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.
I've not had a rebate lost yet. And I don't spend time sending any in.
The wife does it for me :)
Post by Dan Davis
Now, what do you have? A bunch of parts and peices that you need to
assemble. Now I'm quite capable of doing that - have been doing it
for many years for my own PCs. In fact, over the last 18 or so years
I've been using PCs, I've only bought 3 actual new PCs (other than
laptops). A Corona luggable, a Franklin, and a Tandy. Obviously I
haven't purchased a new PC in a long long time. All my other desktops
sort of blend into one stream of endless upgrades and miscellaneous
parts. Many of those peices are still in boxes or lying around in the
closet somewhere.
And of course, you're now talking about a Linux PC. I wouldn't mind
going to Linux, but I feel that OS X gives the best of both worlds. A
desktop Unix with a good base of commercial applications and support.
Linux has commercial apps, sure, but they are mostly heavy-duty apps
that I don't need. If you want Windows, add $100 for that.
$100? That's too much :) Last XP Home licence I bought was $66(full
version OEM).
Post by Dan Davis
Add $200
if you want XP Pro, which is what you'll need to be comparable with the
abilities of OS X.
The same place I bought the XP home, had XP Pro for $77(yes, it's legit,
and legal. What capabilities are missing in XP home that XP Pro have?
Here's a few...

Remote Desktop(which OSX does not include)
Multi-processor support(which is irrelevant to most consumer boxen)
IIS(big deal, install apache, it's free)
Encrypting file system support(irrelevant to most consumers)
File level access control(irrelevant to most consumers)
Domain membership(irrelevant to most consumers)
Group Policies(irrelevant to most consumers)
Roaming Profiles(irrelevant to most consumers)
GUI for Ipsec(irrelevant to most consumers)
SNMP, SAP agent, Client for netware(irrelevant to most consumers)
Post by Dan Davis
Now you're probabaly up to $500-$600 with a monitor
Adding $66 for XP Home, and $79 for a 17" CRT I'm up to $477
Post by Dan Davis
and a viable OS that you can actually buy software for.
Why buy, when there are many opensource alternatives?
Post by Dan Davis
And now the big question - with all those low end
Low End? Umm, okay.
Post by Dan Davis
probably discontinued
parts,
Please name me, in my list fo parts, what is discontinued, save for
_maybe_ the mobo.
Post by Dan Davis
how is support going to be? Lets say your CD-ROM doesnt work
right.
I'd return it to OfficeMax, and pick out another.
Post by Dan Davis
Is it the CD-ROM? The motherboard? Maybe its the driver in
your no-name video card?
A Video card, based upon Nvidia reference designs? hardly.
Post by Dan Davis
Who will you call for support, and who will
they blame?
I support my own computers. Seeing as how I'm loading Linux on this box,
I'd have no hardware/software support anyhow.
Post by Dan Davis
And how will you handle those rebates if something fails?
The rebates are sent out, the day I purchase the parts. If they fail(which
has never been the case), I'd return them.
Post by Dan Davis
I
tend to buy reliable name brand components for my PCs because they are
more likely to work and work well, which is a lot more important to me
than saving $100 or $200.
I prefer saving a few bucks, and still getting good components. Which is
what I've done.
Post by Dan Davis
Kingston RAM, Tyan or Asus motherboards, CPUs
with the right heatsink/fan included (retail).
If you noticed, I did purchase the retail Athlon XP, for that reason. The
ram, I've purchased, now over 20 gig from Komusa, without a problem. I
also test each and every box I've assmbled for 24+ hours with memtest 86.
Post by Dan Davis
If I spend 10 hours trying to figure out some obscure problem because
of cheap components on my PC, the whole deal becomes a losing
proposition.
I've not had that happen.
Post by Dan Davis
If I lose data because of it, it can make the whole point
of owning a PC moot.
I've not had that happen, either, save for a dead WD hard drive.
Post by Dan Davis
If you choose good components, you wont get
rebates and youll tack on another $200 to that price.
I chose good components, saved some bucks. Best of both worlds.
Post by Dan Davis
Now you're in the same range as an eMac, and you still don't have a
DVD-RW.
Ahh, so now you're looking at the $999 version? Okay, tack on $87 for a
LiteOn DVD +/- R/RW drive.
Post by Dan Davis
You also neglect to mention little nicities like a mouse and keyboard.
Of course, you probably already have those. I have several that
sorta kinda work lying around.
Okay, tack on $40 for a logitech optical scroll mouse, and a decent
keyboard.
Post by Dan Davis
The point being, most people do not want to have to build their PC just
like most people don't want to have to build their washing machine or
microwave oven.
Well, I'm not most people then. I enjoy building PCs. I enjoy the Mac too.
I've built/rebuilt cars from the ground up.
I built my motorcycle from the ground up.
I indirectly build appliances too :) (I make plastice injection molds for
many of the appliance industry big names :) ).
Post by Dan Davis
Sure it's easier to make a PC than to make a washing
machine, but I would also rather have a single place to haul it back to
if something doesnt work.
If you find out your motherboards USB has a
bug in it that wont let it work with your USB mp3 jukebox, do you think
they are going to fix it?
I've not had that happen. Maybe I'm fortunate? Maybe I'm just good at
picking out parts that just work...
Post by Dan Davis
Are you going to spend the UPS money to ship
it back and forth with a vendor who, in all likelyhood, won't even fix
it?
What if you don't have a local Apple store to support you? You'd still pay
to have it shipped back to apple.
Post by Dan Davis
Probably not. I've seen that sort of situation way too many times
with PC boards - things that either dont work right, dont work at all,
or only work 'sometimes'.
Like I've said, I've not had those problems. The only problem I've *EVER*
had with a mobo, was the onboard sound on an Asus mobo not liking the
drivers. No biggie, email Asus, they pointed me to a "beta" driver. Voila,
worked like a charm :)
Post by Dan Davis
Even my HP notebook here sometimes decides it
doesn't like my USB mouse - ie when I switch my trackpad on and off, and
thats a namebrand product. It's much worse with homebuilts.
-Dan
It seems you've had some bad luck in the past. I've had good luck, and
seems we've been doing this about the same amount of time. My 1st computer
was a Timex Sinclair ZX80. The only retail PCs I've bought, for myself,
was a Toshiba laptop. I've recently bought a few Dell SC400s, and turned
them into workstations for work. The only reason I did this, vs building
one from the ground up, was because I couldn't build one, for what I could
get the bare bones Dell for.
Post by Dan Davis
<snip>
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks.
You can, I have...
Post by Dan Davis
Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage.
Wrong.
Post by Dan Davis
We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a
Dell of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap
keyboards. In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which
you'll almost certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
#1) $400 doesn't mean integrated video #2) $400 doesn't mean
"relatively slow" CPU. Especially compared to Apple's consumer
offerings.
#3) What brand of CD/RWs aren't "jittery"?
Here's a PC I just built for my neice. Soyo SYk7VME Motherboard $48,
but I get a $50 rebate. So they paid me $2 :) Athlon XP Barton 2500+
333MHZFSB $80 retail version with fan and heatsink. 120 Gig Seagate HD
$60 After rebate
Mad Dog GeForce FX5200 $39 After rebate Khypermedia(relabled LiteOn)
52X CDRW $10 after rebates. LiteOn MicroATX case $45
http://tinyurl.com/32sjl 512MB Ram(2x dual channel 256 meg from
komusa.com) $100 Total cost: $332 No need for the Microsoft Tax, since
I'll be loading Fedora.
No integrated video(well, there is integrated video on the mobo, but
it's not used). No "jittery" CDRW. PLENTY of fast ram. And it's highly
doubtful that it'll be upgraded "the month after you buy it".
Dan Davis
2004-04-18 19:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.
Ram, Mobo, CPU and case were bought online. The rest locally thru
officemax & CompUSA.
2 trips and 3 mailorders. And then you have to assemble it.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.
I've not had a rebate lost yet. And I don't spend time sending any in.
The wife does it for me :)
Does she know how little you value her time?
Post by Steve Mackay
$100? That's too much :) Last XP Home licence I bought was $66(full
version OEM).
Post by Dan Davis
Add $200
if you want XP Pro, which is what you'll need to be comparable with the
abilities of OS X.
The same place I bought the XP home, had XP Pro for $77(yes, it's legit,
and legal. What capabilities are missing in XP home that XP Pro have?
Here's a few...
Remote Desktop(which OSX does not include)
Multi-processor support(which is irrelevant to most consumer boxen)
IIS(big deal, install apache, it's free)
Encrypting file system support(irrelevant to most consumers)
File level access control(irrelevant to most consumers)
Domain membership(irrelevant to most consumers)
Group Policies(irrelevant to most consumers)
Roaming Profiles(irrelevant to most consumers)
GUI for Ipsec(irrelevant to most consumers)
SNMP, SAP agent, Client for netware(irrelevant to most consumers)
The major problem you'd find is the number of clients and types of
servers you can run on XP Home. Then there are the notorious
licensing hoops that XP requires. Unable to join a domain is a major
drawback for many users.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Now you're probabaly up to $500-$600 with a monitor
Adding $66 for XP Home, and $79 for a 17" CRT I'm up to $477
Post by Dan Davis
and a viable OS that you can actually buy software for.
Why buy, when there are many opensource alternatives?
Tell that to your average PC buyer.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
And now the big question - with all those low end
Low End? Umm, okay.
Post by Dan Davis
probably discontinued
parts,
Please name me, in my list fo parts, what is discontinued, save for
_maybe_ the mobo.
That's sort of major. I would bet that within 6 months, more of those
components will be discontinued.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
how is support going to be? Lets say your CD-ROM doesnt work
right.
I'd return it to OfficeMax, and pick out another.
Is it the CD-ROM? The motherboard? Maybe its the driver in
Post by Dan Davis
your no-name video card?
A Video card, based upon Nvidia reference designs? hardly.
Sorry bud, but this statement pretty much lables you as a PC newbie.

Any cursory search of the web on PC motherboards reveals not a few,
but literally hundreds of compatibility problems between various
components. Sure, most are fixed with the right combination of
drivers, bios updates, or manual IRQ settings.

And a lot of wasted time for the users.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
If I spend 10 hours trying to figure out some obscure problem because
of cheap components on my PC, the whole deal becomes a losing
proposition.
I've not had that happen.
If you've been doing much at all with PCs for any length of time,
particularly building your own, its extremely unlikely you haven't had
that happen.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
The point being, most people do not want to have to build their PC just
like most people don't want to have to build their washing machine or
microwave oven.
Well, I'm not most people then. I enjoy building PCs. I enjoy the Mac too.
I've built/rebuilt cars from the ground up.
I built my motorcycle from the ground up.
I indirectly build appliances too :) (I make plastice injection molds for
many of the appliance industry big names :) ).
You're still new at it then. After a while, it all becomes the same
old same old crap. I no longer wish to waste my time.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
If you find out your motherboards USB has a
bug in it that wont let it work with your USB mp3 jukebox, do you think
they are going to fix it?
I've not had that happen. Maybe I'm fortunate? Maybe I'm just good at
picking out parts that just work...
Or maybe you haven't done as much with PCs as you try to imply.
Again, a cursory search will find tons of compatibility issues with
USB devices - usually its due to the BIOS on the motherboard.
Sometimes it just doesnt support some protocol or another. It's not
at all uncommon.

Check out this poor bloke :
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=incompatible+usb+archos&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=PgExa.309%24po1.20092%40nnrp1.ozemail.com.au&rnum=4

No answer for him.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Are you going to spend the UPS money to ship
it back and forth with a vendor who, in all likelyhood, won't even fix
it?
What if you don't have a local Apple store to support you? You'd still pay
to have it shipped back to apple.
Or just haul it to CompUSA if i buy it there, or BestBuy, or to one of
the Apple stores in DFW area.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Probably not. I've seen that sort of situation way too many times
with PC boards - things that either dont work right, dont work at all,
or only work 'sometimes'.
Like I've said, I've not had those problems. The only problem I've *EVER*
had with a mobo, was the onboard sound on an Asus mobo not liking the
drivers. No biggie, email Asus, they pointed me to a "beta" driver. Voila,
worked like a charm :)
And if you buy an Apple, you don't really have to worry about drivers,
correct?
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Even my HP notebook here sometimes decides it
doesn't like my USB mouse - ie when I switch my trackpad on and off, and
thats a namebrand product. It's much worse with homebuilts.
-Dan
It seems you've had some bad luck in the past. I've had good luck, and
seems we've been doing this about the same amount of time. My 1st computer
was a Timex Sinclair ZX80. The only retail PCs I've bought, for myself,
was a Toshiba laptop. I've recently bought a few Dell SC400s, and turned
them into workstations for work. The only reason I did this, vs building
one from the ground up, was because I couldn't build one, for what I could
get the bare bones Dell for.
ie you can't match a Dell up to an eMac with the same features.

I haven't had most of the problems I mention are possible with a PC.
Many of te problems are related to the OS, which has mutated over the
years (DOS, 3.1, OS/2, NT 3.1, Win2k) I have had a few over the
years, but then I upgrade like every year. Unless you are extremely
lucky, if you have been building PCs you have had compatibility
problems. The driver issue you mentioned is a good example. Search
the web and youll find thousands more.

-Dan
Steve Mackay
2004-04-19 00:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
First, you have to order from a half dozen different companies to get
the parts you listed. UPS is going to rack up some extra money on
that you didn't list. It's also more likely you'll have the wrong
part shipped to you or have something lost/broken in transit since
you're ordering from several vendors.
Ram, Mobo, CPU and case were bought online. The rest locally thru
officemax & CompUSA.
2 trips and 3 mailorders. And then you have to assemble it.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
In any case, you spend a bunch of time messing with mailing in a half
dozen rebate forms right off the bat. My experience has been that
about half of such offers will get 'lost' by the company offering the
rebates.
I've not had a rebate lost yet. And I don't spend time sending any in.
The wife does it for me :)
Does she know how little you value her time?
She's a stay at home mom. She has the time.
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
$100? That's too much :) Last XP Home licence I bought was $66(full
version OEM).
Post by Dan Davis
Add $200
if you want XP Pro, which is what you'll need to be comparable with the
abilities of OS X.
The same place I bought the XP home, had XP Pro for $77(yes, it's legit,
and legal. What capabilities are missing in XP home that XP Pro have?
Here's a few...
Remote Desktop(which OSX does not include)
Multi-processor support(which is irrelevant to most consumer boxen)
IIS(big deal, install apache, it's free)
Encrypting file system support(irrelevant to most consumers)
File level access control(irrelevant to most consumers)
Domain membership(irrelevant to most consumers)
Group Policies(irrelevant to most consumers)
Roaming Profiles(irrelevant to most consumers)
GUI for Ipsec(irrelevant to most consumers)
SNMP, SAP agent, Client for netware(irrelevant to most consumers)
The major problem you'd find is the number of clients and types of
servers you can run on XP Home. Then there are the notorious
licensing hoops that XP requires. Unable to join a domain is a major
drawback for many users.
Please tell me one type of services that an average consumer needs, that
is in XP Pro VS XP Home.
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Now you're probabaly up to $500-$600 with a monitor
Adding $66 for XP Home, and $79 for a 17" CRT I'm up to $477
Post by Dan Davis
and a viable OS that you can actually buy software for.
Why buy, when there are many opensource alternatives?
Tell that to your average PC buyer.
I do, quite often. Many of them are now running Open Office vs spending $
on MS Office.
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
And now the big question - with all those low end
Low End? Umm, okay.
Post by Dan Davis
probably discontinued
parts,
Please name me, in my list fo parts, what is discontinued, save for
_maybe_ the mobo.
That's sort of major. I would bet that within 6 months, more of those
components will be discontinued.
Why is it major?
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
how is support going to be? Lets say your CD-ROM doesnt work
right.
I'd return it to OfficeMax, and pick out another.
Is it the CD-ROM? The motherboard? Maybe its the driver in
Post by Dan Davis
your no-name video card?
A Video card, based upon Nvidia reference designs? hardly.
Sorry bud, but this statement pretty much lables you as a PC newbie.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Wrong as you are...
Post by Dan Davis
Any cursory search of the web on PC motherboards reveals not a few,
but literally hundreds of compatibility problems between various
components. Sure, most are fixed with the right combination of
drivers, bios updates, or manual IRQ settings.
Manual IRQ settings? How quaint. I've not really had to do any of that in
some time. Like I've said, I've been quite good at choosing components
that do work together. I'm sorry you can't see that. I've really not had
the hardware difficulties you seem to be portraying.
Post by Dan Davis
And a lot of wasted time for the users.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
If I spend 10 hours trying to figure out some obscure problem because
of cheap components on my PC, the whole deal becomes a losing
proposition.
I've not had that happen.
If you've been doing much at all with PCs for any length of time,
particularly building your own, its extremely unlikely you haven't had
that happen.
Again, I'm sorry you feel that way.
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
The point being, most people do not want to have to build their PC
just like most people don't want to have to build their washing
machine or microwave oven.
Well, I'm not most people then. I enjoy building PCs. I enjoy the Mac
too. I've built/rebuilt cars from the ground up. I built my motorcycle
from the ground up. I indirectly build appliances too :) (I make
plastice injection molds for many of the appliance industry big names
:) ).
You're still new at it then.
What gives you that idea? I've built 4 this year alone. Maybe I'm just
better at choosing the components than you are.
Post by Dan Davis
After a while, it all becomes the same old
same old crap. I no longer wish to waste my time.
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
If you find out your motherboards USB has a bug in it that wont let
it work with your USB mp3 jukebox, do you think they are going to fix
it?
I've not had that happen. Maybe I'm fortunate? Maybe I'm just good at
picking out parts that just work...
Or maybe you haven't done as much with PCs as you try to imply. Again, a
cursory search will find tons of compatibility issues with USB devices -
usually its due to the BIOS on the motherboard. Sometimes it just doesnt
support some protocol or another. It's not at all uncommon.
It's most likely not. But, again, I've not really had the horror stories
you've had. I did have a problem with a Soyo memory stick reader when XP
1st came out. It would crash and burn *EVERY* XP PC out there. It was the
initial driver problem. 2 weeks later, they had a new driver, voila, works
fine.
Post by Dan Davis
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=incompatible+usb+archos&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=PgExa.309%24po1.20092%40nnrp1.ozemail.com.au&rnum=4
No answer for him.
That's too bad he's running a 6 year old OS, with no original instalation
disc. Do you see a problem there?
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Are you going to spend the UPS money to ship it back and forth with a
vendor who, in all likelyhood, won't even fix it?
What if you don't have a local Apple store to support you? You'd still
pay to have it shipped back to apple.
Or just haul it to CompUSA if i buy it there, or BestBuy, or to one of
the Apple stores in DFW area.
That's great, But what if none of those are available close by?
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Probably not. I've seen that sort of situation way too many times
with PC boards - things that either dont work right, dont work at
all, or only work 'sometimes'.
Like I've said, I've not had those problems. The only problem I've
*EVER* had with a mobo, was the onboard sound on an Asus mobo not
liking the drivers. No biggie, email Asus, they pointed me to a "beta"
driver. Voila, worked like a charm :)
And if you buy an Apple, you don't really have to worry about drivers,
correct?
Sure, because you have less choices on things like CDRW drives, DVD+R/RW
drives, Printers, Scanners, etc... With a PC, I can go down to the local
best buy, and purchase *ANY* CDRW drive. It will work, and work well. Do
that with a Mac, and it's hit or miss, or a trip to Xlr8yourmac.com's
compatibility database, or a driver hack.
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
Even my HP notebook here sometimes decides it doesn't like my USB
mouse - ie when I switch my trackpad on and off, and thats a
namebrand product. It's much worse with homebuilts.
-Dan
It seems you've had some bad luck in the past. I've had good luck, and
seems we've been doing this about the same amount of time. My 1st
computer was a Timex Sinclair ZX80. The only retail PCs I've bought,
for myself, was a Toshiba laptop. I've recently bought a few Dell
SC400s, and turned them into workstations for work. The only reason I
did this, vs building one from the ground up, was because I couldn't
build one, for what I could get the bare bones Dell for.
ie you can't match a Dell up to an eMac with the same features.
I responded to your post about the Sony VS the eMac. Which really was a
silly comparison. But we could compare a an eMac with a Dell 2400. But I'm
sure you'd dismiss it because of the onboard video. But the emac, also has
onboard video, with a dismal 32 meg. I'd be willing to bet the Dell 2400
could match, or beat the eMac in 3D applications, just because of the much
faster processor.
Post by Dan Davis
I haven't had most of the problems I mention are possible with a PC.
Many of te problems are related to the OS, which has mutated over the
years (DOS, 3.1, OS/2, NT 3.1, Win2k) I have had a few over the years,
but then I upgrade like every year. Unless you are extremely lucky, if
you have been building PCs you have had compatibility problems. The
driver issue you mentioned is a good example. Search the web and youll
find thousands more.
-Dan
I've had problems in the past, sure. But none of the ones you really
mentioned. Especially since win2K.
Dan Davis
2004-04-19 10:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
ie you can't match a Dell up to an eMac with the same features.
I responded to your post about the Sony VS the eMac. Which really was a
silly comparison. But we could compare a an eMac with a Dell 2400. But I'm
sure you'd dismiss it because of the onboard video. But the emac, also has
onboard video, with a dismal 32 meg. I'd be willing to bet the Dell 2400
could match, or beat the eMac in 3D applications, just because of the much
faster processor.
Try doing the comparison with a Dell 2400. Yes the eMac has 'onboard'
video - that's different than 'integrated' video.

You wind up with a P4 Celeron (P4 Celerons are poor performoers -
probably worse than the G4 with no L3 on the eMac) at $869. That's
even giving a few concessions, like using XP Home and the integrated
video - meaning a lot of PC apps would run poorly on this box. The
prices are comparable.

That's also not including software. You can add on the software from
Dell to get similar funcionality, add firewire, and you wind up at
$1038.

-Dan
Steve Mackay
2004-04-19 15:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
Post by Steve Mackay
Post by Dan Davis
ie you can't match a Dell up to an eMac with the same features.
I responded to your post about the Sony VS the eMac. Which really was a
silly comparison. But we could compare a an eMac with a Dell 2400. But I'm
sure you'd dismiss it because of the onboard video. But the emac, also has
onboard video, with a dismal 32 meg. I'd be willing to bet the Dell 2400
could match, or beat the eMac in 3D applications, just because of the much
faster processor.
Try doing the comparison with a Dell 2400. Yes the eMac has 'onboard'
video - that's different than 'integrated' video.
You wind up with a P4 Celeron (P4 Celerons are poor performoers -
probably worse than the G4 with no L3 on the eMac) at $869. That's
even giving a few concessions, like using XP Home and the integrated
video - meaning a lot of PC apps would run poorly on this box. The
prices are comparable.
$869!? Are you taking PC buying tips from Snit? I got my father's
girlfriend one a year ago for $369 with monitor. Now, if you're looking at
the Dell 4600 with a GeForce FX5200 with 17" CRT or 15" LCD, it's $1179
with DVD+R/RW, Firewire, 80 gig, 3.06GHZ 512 meg of ram. My DVD Deluxe,
etc...
Post by Dan Davis
That's also not including software. You can add on the software from
Dell to get similar funcionality, add firewire, and you wind up at
$1038.
-Dan
Wally
2004-04-17 09:26:36 UTC
Permalink
----------
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
You missed the Third reason Dan.......Habit! ;=)
Martik
2004-04-17 20:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wally
You missed the Third reason Dan.......Habit! ;=)
Try to get in the habit of snipping :)
Nash*ton
2004-04-18 02:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martik
Post by Wally
You missed the Third reason Dan.......Habit! ;=)
Try to get in the habit of snipping :)
He doesn't know how;)

Nicolas
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 02:05:25 UTC
Permalink
how
I do.
Nash*ton
2004-04-18 02:34:26 UTC
Permalink
how
do.
So do I.

Nicolas
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 02:42:12 UTC
Permalink
how
do.
I.
I have always had faith in your abilities.
Nash*ton
2004-04-18 03:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by §¼¡Ý
how
do.
I.
I have always had faith in your abilities.
Prove it. Proof by assertion. How ironic.

Nicolas
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 03:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by §¼¡Ý
how
do.
I.
I have always had faith in your abilities.
Prove it. Proof by assertion. How ironic.
Prove that I haven't proven it!
Nash*ton
2004-04-18 04:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Nash*ton
Post by §¼¡Ý
how
do.
I.
I have always had faith in your abilities.
Prove it. Proof by assertion. How ironic.
Prove that I haven't proven it!
2+2=6

take that!

Nicolas
§¼¡Ý
2004-04-18 04:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by §¼¡Ý
Post by Nash*ton
Post by §¼¡Ý
how
do.
I.
I have always had faith in your abilities.
Prove it. Proof by assertion. How ironic.
Prove that I haven't proven it!
2+2=6
take that!
You win.

Drat!

But you have to admit, it was a close match.
Jim Polaski
2004-04-17 19:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
Lets look at something that all you folks so often disregard.

Apple is NOT just a *hardware assembler* like nearly every Wintel OEM!
yet you *expect* them to compete and make a Mac at nearly the same price
point as a PC and critize Macs for being overpriced.

Go to Apple and look at what they offer, both in software and hardware.
Look at their *Educational* offerings‹which blow away nearly anthing
from a Wintel OEM.

IWO, Apple has a lot more to support with its profit margin than the
Wintel OEMS who only assemble parts.

Try getting the big picture before you spout off on pricing. It's just
not as simple as you'd like to be. After this, then consider that Apple
just can't have the economy of scale that say a Dell can get on
components. Additionally , I'd bet Apple doesn't always shop the lowest
priced components. I think we have evidence of that in how much longer
Macs usually last and that fewer are DOA, and have fewer hardware
problems in general. Things like the eMac are pretty bulletproof. Our
school district buys them at $520 and little goes wrong save for a
mouse, KB or HD. Same for the older iMacs. Otherwise, our district
wouldn't be buying them. It is the best *value* they can find, and
they've looked at PC's, but they don't hold up under the pounding by the
kids.

So look at the big picture.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do while expecting that he will get nothing in return!"

Macintosh for productivity. Linux for servers. Palm/Visor for mobility. Windows to feed the Black Hole in your IT budget
Nash*ton
2004-04-18 02:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
Lets look at something that all you folks so often disregard.
Apple is NOT just a *hardware assembler* like nearly every Wintel OEM!
yet you *expect* them to compete and make a Mac at nearly the same price
point as a PC and critize Macs for being overpriced.
Go to Apple and look at what they offer, both in software and hardware.
Look at their *Educational* offerings‹which blow away nearly anthing
from a Wintel OEM.
IWO, Apple has a lot more to support with its profit margin than the
Wintel OEMS who only assemble parts.
Try getting the big picture before you spout off on pricing. It's just
not as simple as you'd like to be. After this, then consider that Apple
just can't have the economy of scale that say a Dell can get on
components. Additionally , I'd bet Apple doesn't always shop the lowest
priced components. I think we have evidence of that in how much longer
Macs usually last and that fewer are DOA, and have fewer hardware
problems in general. Things like the eMac are pretty bulletproof. Our
school district buys them at $520 and little goes wrong save for a
mouse, KB or HD. Same for the older iMacs. Otherwise, our district
wouldn't be buying them. It is the best *value* they can find, and
they've looked at PC's, but they don't hold up under the pounding by the
kids.
So look at the big picture.
(Violins in the background)

I had the power button on 2 of my 350 MHz blue iMacs fail on me. Now I
taped a bit of metal on the power button, which is receeded (I had to
turn it over on the monitor side to get them to work) and always leave
the computers on.
The MB on my 9600/500 G3 upgraded failed twice. I had to replace the MB
on my Pismo, a few days before the warranty ended. The fan on my 32 MB
ATI Radeon OEM in my Cube failed and I didn't have a computer for 3
weeks (had to send it to Apple because of the fact that I live far from
a big City and the Cube was on warranty. I begged to have another Radeon
sent to me so that I can replace it myself, but according to Apple, it
was a non servicable part by the end user, so in the end, I had to pay
the price of shipping to send the machine and Apple paid for sending it
back, as this is their policy).
Those dreadful Performa CD 5200 had the video issue. I was running my
business with them. Had to take them to the nearest repair center
(they're closed now) 4 hours away.
So Jim, Macs are not immune to hardware failure and even though Apple
makes fantastic hardware/software bundles that work great, they are not
any better than PCs.
As for Apple having fewer DOAs, I would like to see the evidence. Last
time I checked, they were at par with Dell.
Lastly, didn't the eMac have a monitor problem a few months back?

Nicolas
Jim Polaski
2004-04-18 18:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nash*ton
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever since OS X came out, and
probably will do so this year. Basically, I'm just waiting for my
current desktop PC to become a bit more obsolete.
I don't understand why so many PC users bash Macs here. The old Mac
OS9, I could see the bashing back then. But not now.
Two factors seem to really drive this, and at least one of them
really doesn't apply any more - and hasnt for the last couple of years
1 - Price.
Every PC nut seems to think they can build a PC for 400 bucks. Even
in the PC world, for $400 you get obsolete garbage. We are talking
integrated video with compatibility problems with newer DirectX
versions and sketchy future support, relatively slow CPUs, cheap and
jittery CD/RW drives, insufficient RAM, no OS (unless you are reusing
an original OS disk - you can't do this if you bought a PC from say
Dell where the disk checks to make sure you're installing it on a Dell
of a specific model), cheap monitors, cheap mice, cheap keyboards.
In other words, something that sort of 'works' but which you'll almost
certainly start upgrading the month after you buy it.
I will be the fist to criticize Apple's high-end pricing. The prices
on the G5s are ridiculous. That might not be entirely their fault
though - it is supply and demand and from what I've read there is more
demand than supply of G5 processors.
As for the other lineup - the G4 towers are way overpriced. They need
to come down about 25% to be remotely reasonable, and even then they
will be a bit on the high side.
The rest though? eMac is one of the best deals going bar none on any
platform. $800 gets you into a complete box, 1.25 Ghz G4 with 512mb
RAM, CDRW / DVD, 40GB drive, a good 17" CRT, and a good standard
software package from Apple. For another $200 you can get
DVD-RW/CDRW, and an 80GB drive. For $900 you can drop to a 1Ghz
processor, and have 80GB / DVDRW. What's more important - it all
works out of the box. No questions, you don't have to worry about
your video card causing your CDROM to stop working or your mouse will
make your USB keyboard flake out.
Can you beat that price in the PC world? Yes - with the bottom line
crappiest systems from a few vendors. Or a homebuilt.
iBook - this is one of the best deals going in ultralight notebooks.
I haven't seen ANY name branded PC notebooks that can beat these on
price / features. Very few are even in its leauge when it comes to
battery life. Go out and find a 4-5 lb PC notebook without integrated
video, with 512MB of RAM, with firewire and a 5 hour battery life from
a reputable vendor for $800-$1000. Good luck. iBooks are about as
solid as my $1600 Thinkpad T30 for not much over half the price.
2 - Performance
Motorola PPC processors fell behind the times about 4-5 years ago. Up
to that point, they seem to have been very competitive with Intel
CPUs. But as Intel ramped up their CPU speeds from direct competition
with AMD the PPC seems to have lost its lead.
The G5 may have changed that; it's certainly closed the gap, though
quite pricey right now.
DUAL PROCESSORS. This is becoming standard for desktop Macs. It's
rare in the PC world to have a box with dual processors; indeed,
Intel has not made a mass market dual capable CPU since the P3. AMD
still makes the Athlon MP, but it is getting long in the tooth and
would probably not stack up well against a dual G5 (perhaps not well
against a dual G4). It's clear that for the most part, the majority
of people with the fastest dual processor boxes on their desktops are
using Macs.
This is not to say you can't build a faster dual processor Xeon or
Opteron : Before you start quoting dual Intel prices, make sure you
check the cost of motherboards with the same types of slots and
expandability on those processors. Most good Opteron / Xeon
motherboards run in the $400 - $600 range (without CPUs). I think its
safe to say Apple makes quality products, so compare them to quality
products. You are talking about $800 - $900 for a low end dual
opteron and motherboard, without RAM, video, etc.
Another note : RESALE. For whatever reason, Macs have superb resale.
PCs become worthless within a few years : selling your old $2000
desktop might buy you dinner at Denneys. 4 year old iBooks and Cubes
are still selling for a good bit - easy to get $700 or $800 for an old
Cube. Pretty amazing really.
-Dan
Lets look at something that all you folks so often disregard.
Apple is NOT just a *hardware assembler* like nearly every Wintel OEM!
yet you *expect* them to compete and make a Mac at nearly the same price
point as a PC and critize Macs for being overpriced.
Go to Apple and look at what they offer, both in software and hardware.
Look at their *Educational* offeringsÐwhich blow away nearly anthing
from a Wintel OEM.
IWO, Apple has a lot more to support with its profit margin than the
Wintel OEMS who only assemble parts.
Try getting the big picture before you spout off on pricing. It's just
not as simple as you'd like to be. After this, then consider that Apple
just can't have the economy of scale that say a Dell can get on
components. Additionally , I'd bet Apple doesn't always shop the lowest
priced components. I think we have evidence of that in how much longer
Macs usually last and that fewer are DOA, and have fewer hardware
problems in general. Things like the eMac are pretty bulletproof. Our
school district buys them at $520 and little goes wrong save for a
mouse, KB or HD. Same for the older iMacs. Otherwise, our district
wouldn't be buying them. It is the best *value* they can find, and
they've looked at PC's, but they don't hold up under the pounding by the
kids.
So look at the big picture.
(Violins in the background)
I had the power button on 2 of my 350 MHz blue iMacs fail on me. Now I
taped a bit of metal on the power button, which is receeded (I had to
turn it over on the monitor side to get them to work) and always leave
the computers on.
The MB on my 9600/500 G3 upgraded failed twice. I had to replace the MB
on my Pismo, a few days before the warranty ended. The fan on my 32 MB
ATI Radeon OEM in my Cube failed and I didn't have a computer for 3
weeks (had to send it to Apple because of the fact that I live far from
a big City and the Cube was on warranty. I begged to have another Radeon
sent to me so that I can replace it myself, but according to Apple, it
was a non servicable part by the end user, so in the end, I had to pay
the price of shipping to send the machine and Apple paid for sending it
back, as this is their policy).
Those dreadful Performa CD 5200 had the video issue. I was running my
business with them. Had to take them to the nearest repair center
(they're closed now) 4 hours away.
So Jim, Macs are not immune to hardware failure and even though Apple
makes fantastic hardware/software bundles that work great, they are not
any better than PCs.
As for Apple having fewer DOAs, I would like to see the evidence. Last
time I checked, they were at par with Dell.
Lastly, didn't the eMac have a monitor problem a few months back?
Nicolas
Where did I say Macs were "immune"? provide the quote, but what I did
say was "fewer". When I have a school district that has 1000's of Macs
and the repair rate is low, it does say something. And while contrary to
your experience, it does carry a different message.

So is there any possibility that your experience might be atypical for
some reason?

I've had some 15 Macs( AIO, Desktops and 4 laptops) and the only
problems I had were my first Mac Plus which ate it's SONY internal
floppy and a mouse or two and a KB. Recently the HD in my old 8500 died
after some 26,000 hrs of use...more or less. Apple's poor quality as you
might like to label it? I don't think so.

So, our respective experiences are 180degrees apart. So why is that?

I think you're just being the malcontent again because as stated, I just
said "fewer" based on my friends/clients who own and use Macs and the
school district.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
while expecting that he will get nothing in return!"
Dan Davis
2004-04-19 18:48:04 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by Jim Polaski
Post by Nash*ton
(Violins in the background)
I had the power button on 2 of my 350 MHz blue iMacs fail on me. Now I
taped a bit of metal on the power button, which is receeded (I had to
turn it over on the monitor side to get them to work) and always leave
the computers on.
The MB on my 9600/500 G3 upgraded failed twice. I had to replace the MB
on my Pismo, a few days before the warranty ended. The fan on my 32 MB
ATI Radeon OEM in my Cube failed and I didn't have a computer for 3
weeks (had to send it to Apple because of the fact that I live far from
a big City and the Cube was on warranty. I begged to have another Radeon
sent to me so that I can replace it myself, but according to Apple, it
was a non servicable part by the end user, so in the end, I had to pay
the price of shipping to send the machine and Apple paid for sending it
back, as this is their policy).
Those dreadful Performa CD 5200 had the video issue. I was running my
business with them. Had to take them to the nearest repair center
(they're closed now) 4 hours away.
So Jim, Macs are not immune to hardware failure and even though Apple
makes fantastic hardware/software bundles that work great, they are not
any better than PCs.
As for Apple having fewer DOAs, I would like to see the evidence. Last
time I checked, they were at par with Dell.
Lastly, didn't the eMac have a monitor problem a few months back?
Nicolas
Where did I say Macs were "immune"? provide the quote, but what I did
say was "fewer". When I have a school district that has 1000's of Macs
and the repair rate is low, it does say something. And while contrary to
your experience, it does carry a different message.
So is there any possibility that your experience might be atypical for
some reason?
I've had some 15 Macs( AIO, Desktops and 4 laptops) and the only
problems I had were my first Mac Plus which ate it's SONY internal
floppy and a mouse or two and a KB. Recently the HD in my old 8500 died
after some 26,000 hrs of use...more or less. Apple's poor quality as you
might like to label it? I don't think so.
So, our respective experiences are 180degrees apart. So why is that?
I think you're just being the malcontent again because as stated, I just
said "fewer" based on my friends/clients who own and use Macs and the
school district.
Your feelings on the reliability issue seem to be correct when the
facts are looked at, at least insofar as laptops go.

I did a bit of research on this as I noted a few nay sayers on the
Apple side of the camp as far as reliability.

According to a Consuer Reports article dated March 2004, Apple has the
#1 reliability record of any laptop maker. The number of repairs and
serious problems from apple laptops is just over 15% according to this
article. The two best Wintel laptop makers are close - Sony and
Toshiba. From there, reliability degrades quite a bit in this order :
IBM, HP, Dell, Compaq, Gateway. Gateway is at nearly 25%.


The same goes for Apple desktops. Apple had the best rating, with
Dell coming in a fairly distant 2nd. The two worst repair history PCs
: Gateway and Micron, with eMachines just ahead of both.

You need a subscription to look at consumerreports.org, the reviews
are under the computer section. Here is a snippet from the article to
tell you how they got their data :

"A recent survey of more than 48,000 ConsumerReports.org subscribers
found that 2 percent bought PCs that became completely inoperable in
the first month; that another 6 percent had serious problems in the
first month but the PCs were usable; and that over the past four
years, 27 percent of PCs have needed repair. The chart shows the
percentage that ever had a repair to original components."

FYI, consumer reports is funded entirely by subscriptions. They do
not allow advertising and use off-the-shelf components to do testing.
This is all done in order to prevent any bias on their part.

-Dan
rt
2004-04-19 07:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Davis
I'm a PC user, and a (real) unix admin on large HP-UX boxes. I've
been thinking about switching to Macs ever
CMON MAYER ORILEIH- WHER R U!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS GUY NEEDS STRAIGEINING OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PCS R 4 SERIUS BIZNISS N MACS R 4 GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE MUST BE A CLOSIT FAG CUZ HE WANTS 2 SWITCH 2
MCS!!!!!!!!!!!BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

ALL THE BEST GAMEZ R 4 PCS MACS AINT GOT NO GOOD GAMES CEPT 4 2 YERZ OLD
ONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROTLF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Holy Blissful Blaspheme, Batman; it's the Mirthfully Merry Messiah®, Smiley
Jesus!! <http://smileyjesus.com/>

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JIMMY
2004-04-19 07:29:38 UTC
Permalink
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA U DUM MACERS R 2 DUM 2 NOW U R GETTIN RIPED
OF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

DELL HAS THE CREATIVE LABS

256 MB NOMAD MuVo NX MP3 Player

$169.95!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ROLFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


U SUCKERS R BYEING THA IPOD MINI IN FAG OINK 4 $249 AN THE DELL MP3 PLAY
COSTCOS ALMOST A HUNNERT BUCKS
LESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

U MCERS R FOOLS

MEYER ORELIH NOES THA FACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LMOAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Holy Blissful Blaspheme, Batman; it's the Mirthfully Merry Messiah®, Smiley
Jesus!! <http://smileyjesus.com/>

<http://smileyjesus.com/> :)+<http://smileyjesus.com/>
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